Aztecs In Utah?

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Aztecs In Utah?

Post Number:#1  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:06 am

Was the Aztec Home land really in Utah? I came across this article in my archives, what do you think?

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Deseret News Saturday, March 24, 1990

RESEARCHERS SAY AZTEC HOMELAND WAS IN UTAH
By Jerry Spangler.

Aztec legend holds that their forefathers migrated to Mexico City from a land to the north - a land of red rocks and four rivers. But just where the Aztec (more accurately the Mexica) homeland was located remains shrouded in myth and mystery. Two researchers now claim they have found the Aztec homeland - in Utah.

~For years, we thought we had pinpointed the Mexica homeland in the Phoenix area," said Cecilio Orosco of California State University, Fresno. ~But there are no red rocks. We weren't looking far enough north." Orosco and Alfonso Rivas-Salmon, a respected Mexican anthropologist at the Universidad Autonoma de Guadalajara, now contend that the land of red rocks spoken of are Utah's maze of canyonlands, and the four rivers mentioned in legend are the Green, the upper Colorado, the San Juan and the portion of the lower Colorado after the confluence of the others. Furthermore, they claim ancient paintings on Utah's canyon walls reflect many of the same symbols and figures found in the Aztec calendar.

Experts say the Barrier Canyon-style rock art in Utah is believed to date to a time well before the time of Christ. According to Orosco, the Mexica migrated from their northern homeland about 502 B.C. History's missing link?

~Utah is sitting on a treasure, a missing link in the prehistory of man in this hemisphere," said Orosco, a professional researcher and amateur archaeologist. ~It's right there on the canyon walls. Utah is the home of Quetzalcoatl." Utah archaeologists, however, expressed skepticism at the report.

Orosco and Rivas recently returned from an expedition down the Green River to examine Barrier Canyon-style rock art. They say common symbols to both the Aztec calendar and Utah rock art include snakes with four rattles, knotted rope symbols and other figures dividing time according to the four-year and eight-year cycles of Venus.

Bug-eyed figures common to Utah pictographs have been interpreted by Orosco and Rivas as representing the duality of Venus as the morning and evening star. The use of knots of strings to represent numbers has been attributed exclusively to the Incas of South America, but ~I found this numerical representation in many of the pictographs~ in Utah.

Orosco and Rivas have identified the calendrical formula symbols on pictographs at Head of Sinbad, Black Dragon Canyon, Barrier Creek and Horseshoe Canyon, all in the canyonlands area of southern Utah. They believe these sites represent celestial observatories.

Drought forced migration Legend holds the Mexica were forced from their northern homeland by a prolonged drought, called the ~Rain of Fire." A series of migrations took the ancient ones south, eventually to build Tenochtitlan more than 1,000 years later on the site of modern-day Mexico City. An eagle devouring a snake was a signal from the gods where to build their city, the legend holds.

The Mexica spoke Nahuatl, a language rooted in an Uto-Aztecan family of languages. Uto-Aztecan is a common language root shared by many different Mexican and Southwestern cultures, including all Great Basin tribes.

The Mexica migration out of Utah would have occurred before the emergence of the more advanced Anasazi and Fremont cultures in Utah. Orosco and and Rivas believe the Mexica possessed a detailed knowledge of a calendar centuries before these cultures.

~We must re-evaluate much of our thinking about the greatness and antiquity of Native American civilization," Orosco said.
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Re: Aztecs In Utah?

Post Number:#2  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:24 am

Assuming the Aztecs came from Utah originally, then could these be from the fore fathers of the Aztec Culture?

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Re: Aztecs In Utah?

Post Number:#3  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:25 am

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Re: Aztecs In Utah?

Post Number:#4  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:25 am

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Interesting.....Bout time...

Post Number:#5  Postby Digger » Sun Jun 01, 2003 2:59 pm

Great article Whyte Eagle......If you have anymore articles/info on this kind of thing.....Please let me know......That ~Rain Of Fire~ was most likely literal....Volcanic destruction, earthquakes and God knows what in the 1100's is what most likely drove them south.......If you were in a drought.....would you go south?......I think not.......To say so is saying the Aztec was a bunch of Morons.....yet they understood the stars, Geometry and other sciences that we today STILL do not understand......

Musta been the kinda drought were having .....NOT! :~o ........Yes we may be a little short on rain/snowfall this year......but it sure as hyell ain't no drought :~o

OH!....thats why the Aztecs made all them ~Water Glyphs~.....to lead them to water that didn't exist! :rofl:
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Re: Interesting.....Bout time...

Post Number:#6  Postby Jornada » Mon Jun 02, 2003 12:17 am

Whyte Eagle,
Great pictures. And there is ample information that the Aztec Homeland was in Utah. There was another article that came out either last year or the year before about some researchers uncovering some symbolic meanings that were identical or simalar to the Aztec symbols found around the Mexico City Area. Also claiming that there homeland was to the North where the Red Rocks were. The pictures you have posted, if, you will notice are of 3 different cultures. They are, if you will, in overlays. They show a very early culture, a later culture and then the last great culture of a more sophisticated and intelligent being. The use of some atomic scanning would prove my point.
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aztec origins &c

Post Number:#7  Postby Unregistered User » Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:54 am

Jornada, I would agree that the images could depict three separate cultures, but when you talk about more and less sophisticated/intelligent beings, that's baloney. Human intelligence has remained largely the same for at least the last 3000 years. Plato and Socrates were doing their work 2,500 years ago, and it hasn't been improved upon yet! The ancient asian game of Go/Weiqui has remained largely unchanged for the last 2,000 years! Some cultures may have had higher levels of technology or a more developed aesthetic, but this does not make them more intelligent. :~P
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Re: aztec origins &c

Post Number:#8  Postby Roger Snow » Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:07 am

Geeezzzze-its,,, Hawk, your not arguing Semantics here, are you?
Shame on ya's.
Suffice it to say, that the panel depicts different era's.
And,,, I'm a lot smarter then my dad was.
SO THERE! :") :rofl: :")
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Re: aztec origins &c

Post Number:#9  Postby Jornada » Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:25 am

Gee, I quess I just don't understand what I had previously read in Webster's Dictionary. Maybe Rog is right, just semanatics. But which one? Just plain semantics, general semantics or maybe generative semantics. Generative semantics might work here (~the language used to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings~). So were the Aztecs more intelligent than the average joes out there? Lets see what Webster says. ~The ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria. Were the Aztecs sophisticated? Webster says ~to make complicated or complex~
Wow, looking at their society, architecture, etc. etc. etc. Those guys just might qualify under generative semanatics.

Okay now I've had a little fun to. Didn't mean to raise the hair on anyones back. Just my observation.
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semantics for mechanics

Post Number:#10  Postby Roger Snow » Wed Jun 04, 2003 9:28 am

HA ! :rofl: :~O :rofl: :~O
Good for you Jornada.
Makes me wish I had a webster's, then I might be able to figure out why or how or who or,,,,, something !
How about this : Lets just for the reason that it does fit so well, say that The above panel depicts an Aztec design. Now, shall we also say that the Aztec's , when they headed south, came upon the foundations of structures built by an Earlier Group of people.
Man Smart, woman Smarter
Aztec Smart, Atlantean Smarter, and much older.
oh well,,, I guess we will find out if that is true soon enough, that is, if the find off the western tip of Cuba is'nt squashed like so much else has been.
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Aztecs in Utah and Aztlan

Post Number:#11  Postby Unregistered User » Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:16 am

This is an interesting article on the origins of the Aztecs and petroglyphs associated with their origin and origination at the fabled Aztlan.

www.100megsfree4.com/fars...m02atl.htm
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Re: Aztecs in Utah and Aztlan

Post Number:#12  Postby Surta » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:04 am

Hey, Digger, I like your logic and humor about going further south in times of drought. Almost a 'DUH'. Whether or not it was a deciding factor in other forced migrations it does tend to be an easy explanation for researchers to use when they can't come up with other reasons. In fact, one can find many examples of researchers using simplistic explanations for events to avoid saying they just don't know. As far as Fremonts being Aztec ancestors, that thought does have merit. There are many similarities between them demonstrated by the petroglyphs of the Fremont, (at Vernal), and reports from the Spanish contact with Aztecs. But I believe the term Fremont is a convenient catch-all name for many groups of early people populating specific areas. Many groups, especially in Utah, are seemingly lumped together under the same heading even though their lifestyles, rock art, and customs are vastly different. Journada states he believes the panels above from McConkie Ranch are from at least three different cultures. This may be entirely true, or it may simply be from three different generations. Certainly there is ample evidence of petroglyphs superimposed over one another, as in the furthermost right-hand figure on the Three Kings panel there. The Fremonts who made these petros were definately kick-a$$ warriors, as were the Aztecs. They captured slaves, and collected whole head scalps as did the Azrecs, whose priests would often wear the skinned faces of their sacrificial victims during the ceremonies. Through the ages, there were probably many splinter groups who went their own ways, beginning or joining other clans. Maybe some Fremonts, the most fierce and adventurous ones went South to become Aztecs, while others stayed behind to become basketmakers and farmers.
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Re: Aztecs in Utah and Aztlan

Post Number:#13  Postby Surta » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:05 am

By the way, what exactly is ~atomic scanning?"
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Re: Aztecs in Utah and Aztlan

Post Number:#14  Postby Unregistered User » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:45 am

hmm... Those are impressive pictures Whyte.

The second picture down looks like a giant nine footer Aztec Warrior if I ever saw one.lol

The Fremont, or who ever it was who carved these were very skilled.

I've seen some of these pics somewhere else... I'll try to find the page.
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200' tall pyramid

Post Number:#15  Postby Unregistered User » Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:11 pm

The article you cited refers to a natural mound or pyramid with steps carved up the front and an altar stone at it's base. Supposedly, this is found in the Uintas somewhere near Vernal, Utah. I've lived all my life in Vernal. I first read an article referring to this place about two years ago. Since that time I've written Rodrigues with no response, have querried every sheepherder, rock hunter, archaeologist (professional and amateur) and old timer around here, followed a couple of weak leads and poked around for days and found zero evidence that such a structure exists.

I'd be very surprised to learn of such a place. I'd be pleased to learn of it's location if it exists, but I seriously doubt its existence.
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Re: 200' tall pyramid in Vernal

Post Number:#16  Postby PTCarroll » Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:14 am

I've been meaning to call Rodriguez (I think I found his phone number in Nebraska). But, yeah, I tend to think it is nonexistant. But I'd like to see it or go looking if he gave some good hints...
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more on Ancient Mexicans in Utah

Post Number:#17  Postby Unregistered User » Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:44 am

Excerpt:
~Europeans back then were fascinated with newly discovered lands and people," Rodrguez explains. Mapmakers often added notes and comments to their drawings, including references to the homelands of indigenous groups on some of the maps. One notation from the1768 Alzate map reads, ~The Mexican Indians are said to have departed from the shores of this lake to found their empire," in reference to what is now the Great Salt Lake in Utah. Another shows an ancient city near the Colorado and Green rivers, also in Utah."

Here's the link:
www.eurekalert.org/pub_re...061504.php
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Whacko Nonsense

Post Number:#18  Postby Tlaloc » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:17 am

The ~Aztecs~ arrived in the valley of Mexico only about 100 years before the spanish conquest. Before that they were told by their king Huitzilopoxtli (Left handed hummingbird. Aglutinative form of Huitzilin - hummingburd and opoxtli meaning litterally ~to the left~) to leave their home in Aztlan and wander until they saw the magic sign of an eagle clutching a rattlesnake on a nopal cactus. They are believed to have wandered for about 100 years. This means that they left Aztlan after 1300. Aztlan is described in Mexican mythology as a wet place with rivers - no references to red rocks. In fact Aztlan means place of the Heron - Aglutinative form of Aztatl (heron) and an - suffix for a place name. Aztlan is believed to be a river delta in western Mexico or Lake Patzcuaro - both places where the people speak uto-aztecan languages.
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Re: Whacko Nonsense

Post Number:#19  Postby Buzztail » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:55 pm

Tlalco

NE Utah also matches that discription and also has Petroglyph of water birds (Heron)
www.jqjacobs.net/rock_art/fremont.html

~Aztlan is believed to be a river delta in western Mexico or Lake Patzcuaro~

as for the uto-aztecan speakers :
that would include the calif. islands and inland valleys, (tataviam) plus all of the Great Basin, and Utah etc. etc. etc.
with no more proof then you have for western mexico or lake patzcuaro -------------buzztail
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Re: Whacko Nonsense

Post Number:#20  Postby PTCarroll » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:04 am

But I see no correlation between the fact that the Utes and such speak an uto-aztecan language with the fact that the Fremont/Anasazi lived in this area some 500 or so years ago. The Fremont, for example, did a lot of things like farming, building pithouses, making granaries, having pottery, making intricate rock art, and such. The Utes did none of those things. Did they somehow lose all this knowledge over the years?

One of the few connections I see in the Vernal area between the rock art and the Utes is the Bear Dance. There are several petroglyph panels that seem to show a bear and a corresponding dancer. However, these panels are done in a style that is different from other rock art in Dry Fork. As such, I'm not sure that you can say the Fremont made those drawings (as if the Fremont were a single people, either - it is possible the rock art was made by 4 or more different groups). Interestingly enough, some of the figures in the Three Kings panels would fall into this ~non-Fremont~ category, but possibly only due to being added to.

I've even read a paper down in New Mexico that claimed the Hopis were responsible for some of the Dry Fork rock art. And that they came up after a revolt against the Spanish in 1680 or so. Now that was interesting. Probably wrong, but interesting.
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Re: Whacko Nonsense

Post Number:#21  Postby Buzztail » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:36 am

Pt whats your point ?

do you consider the topic " Aztec in utah "

Whacko Nonsense -also ?

note: other then records show that the uto-Aztecan speakers wher in Utah --I made no conection to any tribal group in Utah -you did

please explain -------------buzztail
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Re: Aztec in Utah

Post Number:#22  Postby Buzztail » Tue May 02, 2006 12:04 pm

Even with the limited info of the people shown in the petroglyph of NE Utah, many seem to belive there is an aztec conection.
So lets explore it some
#1. trophy heads were a practice of people far to the south of NE Utah, yet are here on the petroglyph panels --Aztec ?
#2. many panels such as the three kings panel, seem way out of place from the norm ! and have been called head hunters, because of the trophy heads they display,
#3. one stone artifact shown on this fourm has the same shape as the trophy head of the three kings panel.
and I belive was used to dry and shape the fresh skinned trophys heads, Aztec or Sukuruames (evil sorcerer-shamans)
#4. if the Aztec returned anything of value north away from Cotez, then they would have used the best to do so !
the Raramuri tribe is well known world wide today for covering vast distances on foot---(called Tarahumara by spainish)
#5. the stone balls shown on this fourm look very close to the balls used today by these people --Wuasima balls--and is an event known as Rarjiparo or Rarajipame-foot throwing !
by these people.
could the Aztec have sent the Raramuri north to hide their Idols that the spanish were destroying ???? YOU BET !
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Re: Aztecs In Utah?

Post Number:#23  Postby Tennessee Tim » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:28 am

New to this - so if this link is hogwash, then so be it.
Interesting read if anything.
Never been to Utah so not sure how valid this info is.......you all are much smarter than I so...............users.skynet.be/fa039055/explora2.htm

Not sure if I posted the link correctly but you can follow.....

Tn Tim

If the TRUTH is out there, it is running faster than me... :~N
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Re: Aztecs In Utah?

Post Number:#24  Postby Buzztail » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:33 pm

Tn Tim ---just read part of the link you posted ---wow !!!
Thanks for sharing .........buzztail
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Re: Aztecs In Utah?

Post Number:#25  Postby lexicon06 » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:25 am

I think you are very correct, the Aztec homeland was originally in Utah, and a new dvd that is soon to come out will prove it!

NEW DVD CLAIMS THAT PERALTA STONE TABLETS HOLD KEY TO MONTEZUMA'S LOST TREASURE.

San Francisco, Ca- September 13, 2006

Xzault Media Group unveils its long-awaited documentary DVD discussing for the first time ever the link between the legend of Montezumas treasure and the mysterious Peralta Stone Tablets. The Secrets of the Stone Tablets: In Search of Montezumas Treasure DVD is an amazing 80 minute journey chronicling the history of the Aztec peoples, Montezuma, and his treasure, and the lesser known narrative of one man and his family who are attempting to find the treasure; all of which is interspersed with historically accurate details regarding the treasure and stones presented by various accredited scholars, historians, and archaeologists.


The heart of the story behind The Secrets of the Stone Tablets begins in 1949 when a man discovered four mysterious pieces of stone engraved with a myriad of symbols and markings while vacationing in Arizona. By 1965, the intrigue surrounding the meaning of the tablets had become so widespread that LIFE magazine even profiled the cryptic tablets in a detailed feature. In that same year, a man named Ray Dillman residing in California with his two young sons came across the LIFE magazine article and was instantly compelled to learn and explore the matter further. Seventeen years later, Rays conclusion that the tablets provided a map leading toward Montezumas missing treasure, was put to the test in an exploratory mission with his sons into the deserts of Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico. The result was the discovery of a previously unbeknownst fifth stone tablet. After much speculation and research with the complete set of tablets, it was Rays belief that the enigmatic signs and symbols emblazoned on the stones were equipped with distinct navigational coordinates that would prove to be the exact directions to Montezumas treasure.

Although Ray Dillman passed away in 1992, his legacy and findings have lived on through his sons and grandson who appear throughout the DVD giving personal insight into the man behind the innovative theories and sharing their own perspectives on the treasure that they are still searching to find today. Also filled with stunning 3D animation reenactments, historically valid information about the Aztec civilization, personal family photos, documentary footage of the mission into the southwest and all the intrigue and lure that comes with Montezumas treasure, The Secrets of the Stone Tablets: In Search of Montezumas Treasure, is a must-see DVD for all generations, from the littlest explorers who only read about this kind of adventure in books, to adults who have once dreamed of finding treasure as a kid, and even those that have always wondered just what became of Montezumas treasure.
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