The Rhoades Copper Map

Discussion of maps that don't fit the criteria of other topics ...

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#26  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:37 pm

Whyte Eagle wrote:You hint that the map may be fake but that if it was genuine Steve is guilty of "felony theft by receiving and obstruction of justice" ... Is that because you believe Steve had the map at some point in time?

Yes, exactly.
He states in "Out of the Dust" page 56, "After a certain turn of events, the Barlow copper re-creation of the map found its way into my hands and those of my close associates."
This seems straightforward, and even though he didn't own it, having it in his possession or presence and not turning it over to its real owner is a crime.

Whyte Eagle wrote:I happen to know that Steve Shaffer did not go alone when he took the copy of the map to the Church and I have spoken with one of those individuals who went with him ... I did not get the impression (at least from that witness) that Steve was making an attempt to sneak it in to the Church's possession, I could be wrong on that but it seemed like he was open about it ...


I may very well be wrong about that then.
The Church library denies that he returned a copy of any map to them, so I assumed he either snuck it in or simply didn't do it. Whatever happened it appears the Church either doesn't want anyone to know, or perhaps the librarian I spoke with simply didn't know about it.

It is interesting that the Church would accept a copy and not try to get the original. I still take that as indication that the map is fake and they were just being polite to Steve.
I wonder if anyone has returned to the archive to see if they still have the copy he gave them? I bet it disappeared.
User avatar
SilenceIsGolden
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#27  Postby Whyte Eagle » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:44 pm

Thanks for the clarification Silence ... that would make sense ...
Image
User avatar
Whyte Eagle
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8447
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Western US

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#28  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:50 pm

You're welcome, Whyte Eagle.

I wanted to clarify-
if the map is fake, no felony was committed by anyone.
having a fake stolen map is just a misdemeanor, and I don't know of any cops or judge that would pursue it.
User avatar
SilenceIsGolden
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#29  Postby Randy W Lewis » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:59 pm

I can see I can't reason with facts,,, soooooooooo I am not going to continue this pissing contest..!!!

you win,,, I can't prove it to you unless you were there,,, or taken there...

and that will never happen....
User avatar
Randy W Lewis
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#30  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:45 pm

Randy W Lewis wrote: I can't reason with facts


I saw at least two solid arguments that you brought:
1. The copy of the map you saw wasn't original, it was a copy of the original.
2. The Church denies everything about the mines, it can't be counted on to verify the map.

The first one absolves everyone involved of any crime, but destroys the provenance of the map.
How do we know that the copy is accurate? How do we know that the original is authentic, or if it even exists?

you say the map led you to mines. I believe it.
However you admit that you understood the map because it's similar to another map you have.
If the map only makes sense when interpreted with your unique knowledge, how do we know that it was the copper map and not your knowledge that led you to those sites?
It's a problem.

Regarding the Church's silence on all things Rhoades, it's difficult to say if they're covering up a secret or if they honestly think the stories are false. I'd guess the latter, pretty much nobody seriously believes in the Rhoades Mines. But even if the Church was covering up, they could still send the cops out after the original map and then publically deny or just make no comment on it. The only people that would suspect anything are all here.
User avatar
SilenceIsGolden
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#31  Postby Whyte Eagle » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:23 am

Silence has some very good points ... The map may not be authentic and still lead you to mines, or land marks, depending on who actually made the map ... and the provenance for it absolutely does not exist ... unfortunately it is like that with a lot of artifacts which get moved out of situ, not with malice obviously, but by good intended discoverers ...
Image
User avatar
Whyte Eagle
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8447
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Western US

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#32  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:23 pm

Randy, this will be the last time I speak to you, so please understand I'm not trying to start an argument here.

Randy W Lewis wrote:you are not a credible source,, I don't care who you are related to,,, well you aint even related anyway..


They said the exact same things about another member of the Rhoades family.
Think about it if you like. Or ignore it. It's all the same to me.
User avatar
SilenceIsGolden
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#33  Postby Randy Bradford » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:46 pm

Randy W Lewis wrote:I wrote a letter to presedent Bensen in reguards to the mines years ago.. and never mind I will not give out this info,,,


That's so mean...lol...don't dangle stuff in our face if you plan to hold back now...
User avatar
Randy Bradford
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#34  Postby Randy Bradford » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:53 pm

SilenceIsGolden wrote:Regarding the Church's silence on all things Rhoades, it's difficult to say if they're covering up a secret or if they honestly think the stories are false. I'd guess the latter, pretty much nobody seriously believes in the Rhoades Mines. But even if the Church was covering up, they could still send the cops out after the original map and then publically deny or just make no comment on it. The only people that would suspect anything are all here.


To me if I believe the Ute tribe has embarked on a deliberate effort to "unknow" the truth about the mines (which I do believe) then it's not hard to believe the church might have done the same. What started out as an effort to protect a secret easily becomes the origin of a fact-based myth. A myth in the sense that the people that knew the truth have passed on and those left alive have been left to believe that a closely guarded secret (the truth) is in fact a myth and the legend endures while the truth remains doubted henceforth...
User avatar
Randy Bradford
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#35  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:27 am

Randy, I could certainly imagine that dynamic working within the Church, I've seen it happen in individuals often enough.
I'm just not certain the Church ever took that much interest in the affair after Young died.

Supposedly Caleb was getting gold for his own personal use after Young's death. The Utes noticed and objected. I've never heard anything to indicate that the Church knew or cared.
If the Church now has any interest in the matter they certainly haven't said anything to anyone I know. I wonder some if all the information they had died with Brigham Young.
Then there's the matter of Thomas Rhoades the younger's very public denial of the mine.
I suppose he may have volunteered that press release, but it also smacks a bit of the public "confession" the Church made John Koyle sign denouncing his Dream Mine.
The Church is commonly used as a means of authenticating otherwise suspicious documents and maps. Their denial of involvement seems pretty forthright.
I've seen enough maps and documents attributed to Caleb that his family has never before heard of. I could easily see how some of them are almost certainly fakes. I suspect the Church gets unwillingly and unwittingly called in to provide a supposedly credible source for otherwise spurious documents and stories as well.

I think anything's possible, from the view that they know nothing and deny the mine entirely to they know everything and actively work to keep it secret or any point in between.
The simplest explanation would seem to be that they don't know anything and don't believe in the mine anymore though.

Whether or not they believe in it says very little about whether or not it exists though.
User avatar
SilenceIsGolden
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#36  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:41 am

I guess what bothers me most is the Church never denied or hid the mines at Tintic or Park City, and they undoubtedly made a fortune off those.
Why then try to conceal these particular ones?
User avatar
SilenceIsGolden
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#37  Postby mrjimsfc » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:29 am

SilenceIsGolden wrote:I guess what bothers me most is the Church never denied or hid the mines at Tintic or Park City, and they undoubtedly made a fortune off those.
Why then try to conceal these particular ones?

Oooh, good point! :kl:
"Nobody wants to listen to the voice of reason when there's a good hysteria to be had. Humans are like that."
User avatar
mrjimsfc
 
Posts: 581
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#38  Postby Randy Bradford » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:36 am

SilenceIsGolden wrote:I guess what bothers me most is the Church never denied or hid the mines at Tintic or Park City, and they undoubtedly made a fortune off those.
Why then try to conceal these particular ones?


If the church doesn't recognize the Rhoades Mines officially there's no reason they would call them on or off limits. If they were on Ute lands it wouldn't matter what the church stance was, they'd still be off limits. Fact is 100 years is a long time for a little known fact to become a well known "myth."
User avatar
Randy Bradford
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#39  Postby roughrockxxx » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:32 pm

one thing though.
ute land would technically be federal land, especially back then.
Under the oversight of US senators and dept of the army or interior.
User avatar
roughrockxxx
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 6:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#40  Postby Randy Bradford » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:51 pm

roughrockxxx wrote:one thing though.
ute land would technically be federal land, especially back then.
Under the oversight of US senators and dept of the army or interior.


That only makes more sense...The Utes and the Mormons were united in their fear of the feds...nobody was telling them squat...
User avatar
Randy Bradford
 
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#41  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:47 am

Randy Bradford wrote: If they were on Ute lands it wouldn't matter what the church stance was, they'd still be off limits. Fact is 100 years is a long time for a little known fact to become a well known "myth."

If we believe the history offered by Rhoades and Boren, it would seem the Church had permission to trespass on Ute lands under the Walker-Young accord. Rhoades however had no such permission so long as he was prospecting for himself and not the Church.
Perhaps the Church assumed that the agreement died with Chief Walker and Brigham Young. It certainly seems that's what Caleb and most of the Utes believed.

But yeah, that would make sense. If they didn't think the agreement was still valid there's no reason to concern themselves with whatever Caleb was doing on the reservation.
The fact that they didn't go looking for the mine when the reservation was thrown open to prospecting in 1905 would seem to indicate they didn't know where it was.

100 years is certainly long enough to lose a lot of information and to add to the story.
Their actions even at the time seem strange though for a group supposedly so tied to the story. Like they didn't know or didn't care about their former involvement in the thing.
Undoubtedly they had bigger fish to fry, and still do.
User avatar
SilenceIsGolden
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#42  Postby Randy W Lewis » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:22 pm

there has always been confusion about the mines,, who had permission who didn't,,,

the church mines,,, these were the ones caleb swore his oath,, """HE NEVER went back to them... they were ancient mines and have ancient symbols on them,, I saw them... the ones they got gold for the church... of course the spanish knew where they were too.. these mines were the ones the indians said NO MORE keep off..

spanish mines,,, these were the ones caleb and fwc went to.. with permission and even indian escorts,,, these are the mines that they were going to get an indian lease on.. the indians were to benefit from this lease.. there were 7 mines... but because of all the Gov coruption not only senators but reed & smoot,, and knight ,, they had to keep the information a secret even to the filing of fake claims,, you guys refere to as 4 square miles in actuality the total land all combined was 4 square miles but not all in the same place,, some here some there..

I hope that clears it up,,, but i doubt it..
User avatar
Randy W Lewis
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#43  Postby Altor » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:28 pm

Randy, Do you have any pictures of the Ancient Symbols in the mines?
User avatar
Altor
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:00 pm

Re: The Rhoades Copper Map

Post Number:#44  Postby sanpete » Thu May 18, 2017 3:38 pm

Lets start this up one more time. I had this thought (yes, some times I do think) In 1962 I and a friend of mine had just got a new jobs with the forest service on the north slops of the Uint's out of Mt.vew Wy. We were going to work on bark bettle control. We were to be housed in different camps. Richard and I were in "Gillbert Creek Camp. Other camps were Dead Horse, Huninta, Daulgreen and several privet camps. This bettle control lasted for several years. We covered lots of ground on both sides of the mountain north and south.Lots of things were found. I bet that at least 6-7 cabons I mean they real old. We were told not to touch anything but could go backbone our own time if we wanted. There were times when you would feel like you were being watched by someone or something. I had this feeling in Vietnam. Guys on the south side said was a every day feeling. I had no idea about old mines at that time. There were a few found. Told to stay away.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
sanpete
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:00 pm

Previous

Return to Other Maps

  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests