Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Discussions centered around North American artifacts ...

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#26  Postby Morningstar » Sun May 12, 2013 11:36 pm

This resembles phases of the moon across the top. ?

Image
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#27  Postby Morningstar » Sun May 12, 2013 11:38 pm

I am not sure what kind of animal this is.

Image
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#28  Postby Morningstar » Sun May 12, 2013 11:40 pm

Clay cuneiform from Michigan.

Image
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#29  Postby Morningstar » Sun May 12, 2013 11:43 pm

These next two are from Burrows Cave.

Image


Image
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#30  Postby Morningstar » Sun May 12, 2013 11:48 pm

Note the rams head at the top of the photo and the two headed snake at the bottom.

Image
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#31  Postby zelph » Tue May 14, 2013 2:11 pm

Morningstar wrote:You are welcome. :) Thank you both for your input! Here are a few photos from last year. You will see some of the same mixed with some new ones. Any guesses as to what the center tablet is depicting?

Morningstar

DSCF6681.jpg


My guess the center tablet is giving instructions on how to melt iron. Seems to be on the principal of the "cupola" furnace of modern times.

Your photos are excellent....thank you!
ZELPHS-STOVEWORKS Home of quality lightweight backpacking stoves. AND Burrows Lowery Cave
User avatar
zelph
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:14 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#32  Postby Morningstar » Tue May 14, 2013 3:52 pm

Zelph, my thoughts are similar to yours. Most of the people I ask, think it is showing a method for distilling some kind of brew.

Morningstar
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#33  Postby zelph » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:22 am

Hi there Morningstar :"} Hope all is well. what's the latest on Wayne's findings?
ZELPHS-STOVEWORKS Home of quality lightweight backpacking stoves. AND Burrows Lowery Cave
User avatar
zelph
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:14 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#34  Postby Morningstar » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:23 pm

Hi Zelph. :) It is nice to hear from you.

Hmmm... I am sorry, I really do not know. His last Book of Mormon Conference presentation was regarding the Kinderhook Plates, the Olmecs, and the suggestion that the Jaredites were black. Do you subscribe to his magazine, Ancient American? That is a good way to keep up on what he is doing.

Morningstar
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#35  Postby zelph » Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Morningstar wrote:Hi Zelph. :) It is nice to hear from you.

Hmmm... I am sorry, I really do not know. His last Book of Mormon Conference presentation was regarding the Kinder hook Plates, the Olmecs, and the suggestion that the Jaredites were black. Do you subscribe to his magazine, Ancient American? That is a good way to keep up on what he is doing.

Morningstar


Thank you Morningstar.

I no longer have a subscription, ran out after 3 years. Learned all there was to know about ancient Americans and where they came from :") .

We know from reading scriptures that Caine was given a mark so that he and his family could be recognized with dark skin. The Masonic Lodges also teach of Cane having black skin." The Lamanites also given the mark. A group associated with the Lamanites put a red mark upon their heads for identification. I wonder what Wayne has come across to make that suggestion :?

I often think about the "Tower of Babble" A curse of many kinds could have been given to curse the tribes so they would have a difference in appearance, ex. slant eyes, black skin etc.

In some vintage photos of Native Americans we can see their skin was really dark and almost looking towards the black side. Now, was it possible that during the time of the Jaredites that they had some Huckleberry Finn types that wondered off to the west and got established there and never heard of again.....we can only speculate. Could the darker skinned ones be a remnant, could Wayne be thinking along those lines :?
ZELPHS-STOVEWORKS Home of quality lightweight backpacking stoves. AND Burrows Lowery Cave
User avatar
zelph
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:14 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#36  Postby Morningstar » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:23 am

Zelph,

You are welcome. :)

The Olmec civilization corresponds with the Jaredite timeline, and the Olmecs seem to have been black. The Kinderhook Plates, if authentic, contain the history of a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoah of Egypt. These two considerations might indicate that at least some of the Jaredites may have been black.

If you are interested in pre-Columbian American history, you may want to revisit the magazine. :)

Morningstar
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#37  Postby zelph » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:23 am

Morningstar wrote:Zelph,

You are welcome. :)

The Olmec civilization corresponds with the Jaredite timeline, and the Olmecs seem to have been black. The Kinderhook Plates, if authentic, contain the history of a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoah of Egypt. These two considerations might indicate that at least some of the Jaredites may have been black.

If you are interested in pre-Columbian American history, you may want to revisit the magazine. :)

Morningstar


Kinderhook.....I had to look that one up.

Rediscovery, analysis, and classification as a hoax

The Kinderhook plates were presumed lost, but for decades The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) published facsimiles of them in its official History of the Church. In 1920, one of the plates came into the possession of the Chicago Historical Society (now the Chicago History Museum).[9] In 1966, this remaining plate was tested at Brigham Young University. The inscriptions matched facsimiles of the plate published contemporaneously, but the question remained whether this was an original Kinderhook plate, or a later copy.

Though there was little evidence of whether the Kinderhook Plates were ancient or a contemporary fabrication, some within the LDS Church believed them to be genuine. The September 1962 Improvement Era, an official magazine of the Church, ran an article by Welby W. Ricks stating that the Kinderhook plates were genuine.[11] In 1979, apostle Mark E. Petersen wrote a book called Those Gold Plates!. In the first chapter Peterson describes various ancient cultures that have written records on metal plates. Then Peterson claims: "There are the Kinderhook plates, too, found in America and now in the possession of the Chicago Historical Society. Controversy has surrounded these plates and their engravings, but most experts agree they are of ancient vintage."[12]

In 1980, Professor D. Lynn Johnson of the Department of Materials Science and Engineering at Northwestern University examined the remaining plate. He used microscopy and various scanning devices and determined that the tolerances and composition of its metal proved entirely consistent with the facilities available in a 19th-century blacksmith shop and, more importantly, found traces of nitrogen in what were clearly nitric acid-etched grooves. This matches what was stated in an 1879 letter to James T. Cobb, in which Wilbur Fugate confesses to the hoax: "Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with rust". According to Fugate, Wiley had planted the plates at the bottom of the hole he had dug in the mound, before fetching a group of others to witness the discovery.[13]

In addition, Johnson discovered evidence that this particular plate was among those examined by early Mormons, including Smith, and not a later copy. One of the features of the plate was the presence of small dents in the surface caused by a hexagonally-shaped tool. Johnson noticed that one of these dents had inadvertently been interpreted in the facsimile as a stroke in one of the characters. If the plate owned by the Chicago Historical Society had been a copy made from the facsimiles in History of the Church, that stroke in that character would have been etched, like the rest of the characters. He concluded that this plate was one that Smith examined, that it was not of ancient origin, and that it was in fact etched with acid, not engraved.[9]

In 1981, the official magazine of the LDS Church ran an article stating that the plates were a hoax. In it, the author claimed that there was no proof that Smith made any attempt to translate the plates: "There is no evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ever took up the matter with the Lord, as he did when working with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham".[9]


Thank you Morningstar!
ZELPHS-STOVEWORKS Home of quality lightweight backpacking stoves. AND Burrows Lowery Cave
User avatar
zelph
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:14 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#38  Postby Whyte Eagle » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:47 pm

In 1980, Professor D. Lynn Johnson of the Department of Materials Science and Engineering at Northwestern University examined the remaining plate. He used microscopy and various scanning devices and determined that the tolerances and composition of its metal proved entirely consistent with the facilities available in a 19th-century blacksmith shop and, more importantly, found traces of nitrogen in what were clearly nitric acid-etched grooves. This matches what was stated in an 1879 letter to James T. Cobb, in which Wilbur Fugate confesses to the hoax: "Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with rust". According to Fugate, Wiley had planted the plates at the bottom of the hole he had dug in the mound, before fetching a group of others to witness the discovery.


I've always had a bit of a problem with the confession in the letter from Wilbur Fugate, the snippet above does not reflect the entire confession where Wilbur states that the plates were made of Copper, when in reality, we know they were actually made from Brass.

He concluded that this plate was one that Smith examined, that it was not of ancient origin, and that it was in fact etched with acid, not engraved.[


I also have a problem with the assumption that the plates were etched with acid as being proof that they could not have been ancient. I have reason to believe (from other things I have worked on) that the Ancients had the knowledge of using acid to etch metal and other things ... so for me, the plates being etched with acid is more of a proof that they are authentic rather than them being a hoax.
Image
User avatar
Whyte Eagle
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8447
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Western US

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#39  Postby Morningstar » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:10 pm

I have a problem with Fugate's confession as well. In addition to not knowing what the plates were made of, he is also unfamiliar with the acid etching method? Fugate states: "Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates." Apparently, the ingredients for etching are correct, but the method is not. As I understand, the wax is put on the plate first, before the inscription and acid is applied.

Whyte Eagle, your idea that the Ancients did use acid etching is fascinating. Care to elaborate? :)
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#40  Postby Hair » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:11 pm

Crazy, how does one guy find all this? I can't even find an arrowhead. I am so jealous
User avatar
Hair
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:22 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#41  Postby Whyte Eagle » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:44 pm

Morningstar wrote:Whyte Eagle, your idea that the Ancients did use acid etching is fascinating. Care to elaborate? :)


I should bring this up on a separate topic of its own ... but in a nutshell ... I have a couple of different projects I've worked on that at least one of the theories on "how it was done" included the possibility that the people involved in making the symbols used an acid of some kind.

Some of the symbols I've been investigating are very finite and are petroglyphs in stone and I cannot reasonably see how an impact method (hammer and hardened object) could be used to make some of the symbols without damaging the symbol being made. The same with carving, the lines are just to precise to be done by carving ... as an alternative, I've been thinking about the possibilities of acid etching.
Image
User avatar
Whyte Eagle
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8447
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Western US

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#42  Postby zelph » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:30 am

I think saying this:

Some of the symbols I've been investigating are very finite and are petroglyphs in stone and I cannot reasonably see how an impact method (hammer and hardened object) could be used to make some of the symbols without damaging the symbol being made. The same with carving, the lines are just to precise to be done by carving ... as an alternative, I've been thinking about the possibilities of acid etching.


Is a lot better than saying this:

I have reason to believe (from other things I have worked on) that the Ancients had the knowledge of using acid to etch metal and other things ... so for me, the plates being etched with acid is more of a proof that they are authentic rather than them being a hoax



I've worked on that at least one of the theories on "how it was done


That's just what it is....theory.
ZELPHS-STOVEWORKS Home of quality lightweight backpacking stoves. AND Burrows Lowery Cave
User avatar
zelph
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:14 pm
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#43  Postby Morningstar » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:23 pm

Zelph, I am sorry, I do not understand your point.

Whyte Eagle, I hope you do start this on a new thread, it is an interesting subject.
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#44  Postby sanpete » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:58 pm

Morningstar wrote:You are welcome. :) Thank you both for your input! Here are a few photos from last year. You will see some of the same mixed with some new ones. Any guesses as to what the center tablet is depicting?

Morningstar

Image

I think I know what it is. You will not like it. It is telling one how to make a brain soup and to finish it off with a joint. just kiding {:}
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
sanpete
 
Posts: 966
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:00 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#45  Postby Morningstar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:07 pm

Ewwww, Sanpet. That is disgusting. :( Thanks for commenting, though. This was a fun thread at one time, I miss all the activity here.
~Sakari Morningstar
User avatar
Morningstar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#46  Postby Uley Bauer » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:15 pm

Really nice pieces for any collection, however, as time progresses space and purpose begin to change on some explorers. For me just keeping any size objects quickly became a problem & them the term souvenir came up. Now, what articles I have acquired will go to a museum (?) or some other, but not a garage sale after I'm gone. Any similar thoughts out there?
Uley Bauer
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:34 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#47  Postby Uley Bauer » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:21 pm

Two references to native stone tools that come to mind are heating & grinding! A round heated stone, 2+ inches in diameter, had been used in cooking acorn mush (3 total) & would bring the mixture to boiling. Wooden tongues aided in placing the hot rocks in & out. Another heated round stone, maybe 2" in diameter also, was placed inside a newly made grass-weave water bottle along with pine pitch & continually rotated to coat the inside surface. California grass water bottles (canteens) were used often & had wide spread use before the native culture changed. And I seem to recall small round stones being used to make paint & mix it also in a small mortar-pestle combination. Paint had wide use in early American culture. Cooking food was a dominant drive & an ability to make baskets assured their survival in an inhospitable environment!
Uley Bauer
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:34 pm

Re: Artifacts From Wayne Mays Collection

Post Number:#48  Postby Uley Bauer » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:30 pm

The tear shaped plumb-bobs with a groove added on the small end for attaching a cord were used as hanging charm stones in California! Early settlers reported seeing them hanging near streams & when asked were told the stones had mystical powers.
Uley Bauer
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:34 pm

Previous

Return to North American Artifacts

  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests