Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Discussion relating to the events of Burrows Cave ...

Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#26  Postby Southern Partisan » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:24 pm

zelph wrote:SP, who owns the property?


I will share this with you on the ownership issue.

This subject has been a very "hot" one through the years with multiple competing claims...the result of which was MUCH "bad blood" ...accompanied by threats of violence at times which has led to much local "urban myths" surfacing from time to time.

Years ago when I was conducting active research, I shared what "evidence" I had on that subject with an attorney friend. My friend surmised that the "ownership" issue was one that could literally "clog" up the courts for many years IF any of the parties were so inclined.

Thus, while I "think" I know who the owner is....I am not certain...and therefore will not be providing any names.

Regards,

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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#27  Postby Geo Dowser » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:14 pm

zelph wrote:SP, who owns the property?


As i mentioned in the other thread, Scott Wolter in America Unearthed, The Grand Canyon Treasure episode came up with a land owner for the Illinois Cave Tombsite,
based on a pin point map from the Jack Ward Files.

I bought the H2 episode from amazon .com

Where it is located and property owners while logical questions but potenitally problematic for an online discussion. Can you see beyond the writing ?

I am hoping and trying to direct a topic flow to solutions/future for this discovery.
but not sure how to do it .....

There are sources of information to answer most of your background questions and they can be googled. I think there were two books written about the whole affair, check out http://alexanderhelios.com That would be a good start to research this stranger than fiction. enigma.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#28  Postby Southern Partisan » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:41 pm

Geo Dowser wrote:
zelph wrote:SP, who owns the property?



Where it is located and property owners while logical questions but potenitally problematic for an online discussion. Can you see beyond the writing ?



Very succinct and accurate depiction!!!!!!!!

Regards,

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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#29  Postby zelph » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:58 pm

Geo Dowser wrote:
zelph wrote:SP, who owns the property?


As i mentioned in the other thread, Scott Wolter in America Unearthed, The Grand Canyon Treasure episode came up with a land owner for the Illinois Cave Tombsite,
based on a pin point map from the Jack Ward Files.

I bought the H2 episode from amazon .com

Where it is located and property owners while logical questions but potenitally problematic for an online discussion. Can you see beyond the writing ?

I am hoping and trying to direct a topic flow to solutions/future for this discovery.
but not sure how to do it .....

There are sources of information to answer most of your background questions and they can be googled. I think there were two books written about the whole affair, check out http://alexanderhelios.com That would be a good start to research this stranger than fiction. enigma.


Thank you very much for the information that you have given. I will continue my research at the sites you have furnished. :")

All information from you and Southern Partisan has been extremely interesting and helpful in understanding the Burrows Cave Artifacts and the history that evolved around the cave. I had originally found this site when I was looking for some updates on the progress being made by Wayne May. I'm grateful to Whyte Eagle for his contributions. I got more information than I could ever had imagined and I'm grateful :D

1 last question:

Is there a photo of the gold bar replica that you mentioned in your original post? You said you held it in your hand/lap/nearby as you were typing. I think you said it was on loan or purchased from P. Ward. Where did it come from? Burrows Cave? I think you said the bar was made of lead and plated gold.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#30  Postby zelph » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:36 pm

Hey Whyte, what do you think of the comment Scott Wolters makes about the artifacts?

As far as Burrows Cave goes, I have to admit that I'm not optimistic. In fact, I did check out both areas circled on Harry's map. The problem is that even though I couldn't find an entrance, it was so overgrown I could have walked right over it. I am also skeptical about the artifacts, some I know for sure are fakes. There could very well be some that are real, but the fakes have polluted the whole collection in my opinion. Those fans who are interested in reading more about these other fakes should check out my latest book, Akhenaten to the Founding Fathers: The Mysteries of the Hooked X.

The biggest problem with Burrows Cave is Russell Burrows. Based on the factual evidence we have so far, the Isis Stone being a 100% fake casts a long dark shadow over Russell's claim. Russell says he cares about history, but if he really did he would have taken skeptical academics to the site and shut them up.But it appears he is planning to take his secret to the grave leaving historians with no other choice but to conclude it was all a hoax. A man with honor would have come forward long ago.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#31  Postby Whyte Eagle » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:10 pm

We've spoke with Scott Wolter before, not about Burrows Cave but on other topics. Scott has a series on the History Channel which is entertaining, but I feel sometimes he has to come up with content to fill the time allotment ... it's a mean paradox that exists when you try and create an information documentary based on facts, but need the entertainment value to entice the viewing public into watching ...

As far as Russ Burrows and the cave that bears his name goes, I pretty much only relate Russ himself to the discovery of the cave and nothing more. Could he have done more with it and found a better way to handle it? Sure, but it's all hindsight and he handled it how he did ... whether he has any regrets over the matter we would have to ask him ... I don't think it is our place to pass judgment on him being honorable or not ... I doubt that any of us are perfect for that matter ... it is what it is ...

So bottom line ... I don't think that Scott Wolter is an expert on Burrows Cave, that's not to say he's not knowledgeable, but he does have a TV series to promote and that can sometimes muddy the waters, it's an all too familiar dilemma, Scott is not the first to experience it nor will he be the last ... but I don't think his opinion has any bearing on the validity of Burrows Cave or the forgery thereof, it's just his opinion ...

I think Russ did find a cave, what the cave represents i anyone’s guess. We won't really know unless some sort of provenience has been preserved. Russ did sell a lot of artifacts, and if they came from the cave, then it would be safe to say that the original provenience no longer exists, but maybe some of it still does and that would be key to it being taken seriously in an academic sense.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#32  Postby zelph » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:01 pm

Whyte, I had asked you what you thought of Scott's comment about the artifact. I put emphasis on the artifact by using bold type. You missed my question. Your thread is about Burrows Cave Artifacts.

Dan
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#33  Postby Whyte Eagle » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:04 pm

My response was to the question of the artifacts, slightly expanded ... :~d ...

Your post appears to be entirely highlighted to me, were you referring to the Isis Stone specifically or all of the artifacts as a whole?
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#34  Postby zelph » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:48 pm

Here I'll do it again. Just the artifacts.

As far as Burrows Cave goes, I have to admit that I'm not optimistic. In fact, I did check out both areas circled on Harry's map. The problem is that even though I couldn't find an entrance, it was so overgrown I could have walked right over it. I am also skeptical about the artifacts, some I know for sure are fakes. There could very well be some that are real, but the fakes have polluted the whole collection in my opinion. Those fans who are interested in reading more about these other fakes should check out my latest book, Akhenaten to the Founding Fathers: The Mysteries of the Hooked X.

The biggest problem with Burrows Cave is Russell Burrows. Based on the factual evidence we have so far, the Isis Stone being a 100% fake casts a long dark shadow over Russell's claim.Russell says he cares about history, but if he really did he would have taken skeptical academics to the site and shut them up.But it appears he is planning to take his secret to the grave leaving historians with no other choice but to conclude it was all a hoax. A man with honor would have come forward long ago.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#35  Postby Whyte Eagle » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:59 pm

That's much better ... :~d

Do you have a good image of the Isis Stone to post?

Scott Wolter wrote:I am also skeptical about the artifacts, some I know for sure are fakes. There could very well be some that are real, but the fakes have polluted the whole collection in my opinion.


There is little doubt that some of the artifacts are modern manufacture, for example the lead copies of the gold artifacts. There has also been at least a couple of the slate ones which appear to be of modern manufacture. It seems to me that Burrows Cave artifacts that are pre-1989 lean towards the authentic while those that are post 1989 tend to lean towards modern influence. That's just my observation.

That being said, I can understand Scott Wolters hesitancy to make a solid statement on the artifacts ... he leaves it open and stays somewhat neutral, he has to ... he has a documentary series to protect ...
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#36  Postby zelph » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:28 pm

Do you have a good image of the Isis Stone to post?


No I don't. Never saw the stone he's talking about.

Back in the 1800's artifacts from Egypt were being imported. You know that for a fact.

Artifacts were being found all over the USA.

The artifacts you are inquiring of could have been from a burial mound They could have been surface finds.

First and foremost someone has to produce a "Burrows Cave"

The "best" have searched for it. Nothing has been found.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#37  Postby Rev.Dr.Chapman » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:41 am

Personally I have have followed the story of Burrows Cave for many years. I have found much too many inconsistencies in his story. I don't know where to begin, but I will mention just a few.

(1) To begin with, just what is Burrows' REAL first name. In some writings, he is called "John". Now in this writing, it is "Russel". Just what is it?

(2) Hi seems to tell his story a little but differently every time he tells it. Has anybody else read his story he told to Ancient American Magazine? In the magazine story he says that he was out using a very good metal detector. All of a sudden his detector lets out a wail so loud he was unnerved by it. He said he followed the readings and then the ground gave way and he fell into a pit, the cave, where he found some large heavy solid gold statues. As you can see, this is completely different from the story told here. Then in later magazine writings, he tells it a little different again.

(3) The so-called ancient writings seem to be a cross between Hebrew, Egyptian hieroglyphics, and KGC code. And now I discover a link to the Mormon history but just can't quite put my finger on it just yet.

(4) He supposedly has put several million dollars into a Swiss bank account, but is still unable to buy groceries for his wife.

(5) Most writings today seem to insinuate that the cave is still openly accessible, but a magazine writing in Ancient American shows where he blew up the cave opening so badly that it caused an underground river to flood the cave and it was then (and now) impossible to enter the cave.

Personally, I think he is one of the biggest con men of the century. :lol:

Your thoughts?
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#38  Postby mrjimsfc » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:27 am

Rev. Dr. You seem to share many of the same reservations that many of us have. You may have also noticed that many "remarkable" discoveries share similar inconsistencies.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#39  Postby zelph » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:06 pm

Rev.Dr.Chapman wrote:(5) Most writings today seem to insinuate that the cave is still openly accessible, but a magazine writing in Ancient American shows where he blew up the cave opening so badly that it caused an underground river to flood the cave and it was then (and now) impossible to enter the cave.
Your thoughts?


I came here looking for an update on the burrows story.

Just last week I read on another site that Wayne May had ceased his attempts to enter under ground cavities in the area he feels the supposed cave is located. The reason being water had entered the cavities from somewhere.

A few years ago I met up with Wayne and had a good discussion with him. I took some photos of an artifacts supposedly from burrows. Some of the photos can be seen at this link:

viewtopic.php?f=179&t=13860

Here is one of the photos:

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Last I heard, Burrows is walking the streets of Colorado with a six shooter strapped to his side for protection. Whyte Eagle indicated that there were folks on his old web site that threatened Burrows. He must think they are still after him. :lol:
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#40  Postby zelph » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:44 pm

(5) Most writings today seem to insinuate that the cave is still openly accessible, but a magazine writing in Ancient American shows where he blew up the cave opening so badly that it caused an underground river to flood the cave and it was then (and now) impossible to enter the cave.


Has Wayne May or anyone found an entrance that seemed to have been blown up? It should have easily identifiable debris for the world to see, right?
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#41  Postby Whyte Eagle » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:02 pm

A lot depends on how it's done, primarily if it's blown internally or externally. Also on how intent the person doing the closure is to closing it. For example, if they were to spend enough time and effort to reclaim the area, then it might not be noticeable at all ... it would be an awful lot of work, and not to mention very dangerous. Personally, I doubt that Burrows would have blown it shut ...
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#42  Postby zelph » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:42 am

Wayne May is has been collecting artifacts along the river edges in WI for long time. He has Eagle Eyes :mrgreen: and would be able to notice changes in the natural environment that he was working in.

The artifact in my photo looked authentic to me. I have reason to believe that most of the artifacts that Burrows sold were authentic. Wayne probably feels the same way.

I don't believe the artifacts came from a cave. It's my opinion that they came from modern collections. amateur archeologists have been collecting since the early 1800's. Those collections become available at estate auctions, sold to museums etc.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#43  Postby KsTHer » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:12 am

Zelph,

I am not going to argue your point because you could be right. The part that intrigues me is the other history prior to Burrows regarding this cave. Michael Paul Henson made mention of it in one of his books which came out back in the fifties or sixties (I think). It seems that there was some mention of artifacts, but his mention of this story (unfortunately) was only a small blurb. Thomas P Terry mentioned it in his book in the volume with Illinois in it from "The United States Treasure Atlas" back in the seventies as well. The article Terry wrote was just a blurb also. These men would get their info in court records and old newspapers. These stories could be embellished... which could have had some semblance of truth to them or they could have given Mr. Burrows an idea. Either way, many alleged artifacts have been attached to the story and a lot of sleuthing will be necessary to ferret out the truth.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#44  Postby zelph » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:26 pm

KsTHer, I agree about how the story can become embellished. People write books in a manner to make them interesting, with a little embellishment.

White Eagle doesn't believe Heinerman was in "Brewers Cave"(dif story) because of what is written in his book???? When do we believe the authors?

I agree about how some authors will get a historical fact from old news papers and then pass that info on to their readers in a fashion that will help sell their books/articles.

Just yesterday I came across an interesting blurb on the internet. The guy said back in 1925 a country store owner died of a heart attack and his wife was left without any money inheritance due to the fact that her husband did not trust banks and would hide his money outside back of their house beyond the pasture. He did not trust his wife either so she didn't know where he hid it. He did not want paper money so all his savings were in gold and silver coins.

Info was given on the guys name and where he lived so I did a quick search on Ancestry.com and found out the guy died in 1930's So it goes to show how facts can change over time.

I've done quite a bit of online research into the Burrows saga. I like puzzles and Burrows is a big one. Wayne May is the one who introduced me to the saga and the part he was involved in.

KsTHer wrote:Either way, many alleged artifacts have been attached to the story and a lot of sleuthing will be necessary to ferret out the truth.




I have been and continue to sleuth to get closer to the truth. I'll be doing further investigating and at some point in time I'll make known all of my findings.

As it stands, no one has produced a cave only interesting stories and artifacts.

Does anyone know if Wayne May did any core drilling to find evidence of artifacts of human occupation of the underground anomalies where he suspected a cave to be?
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#45  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:42 pm

Zelph wrote:White Eagle doesn't believe Heinerman was in "Brewers Cave"(dif story) because of what is written in his book???? When do we believe the authors?


Not necessarily because of what he wrote in his book, but rather from 1:1 interviews with him, what he has told me personally and what John Brewer himself said about him.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#46  Postby zelph » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:04 pm

Whyte Eagle wrote:
Zelph wrote:White Eagle doesn't believe Heinerman was in "Brewers Cave"(dif story) because of what is written in his book???? When do we believe the authors?


Not necessarily because of what he wrote in his book, but rather from 1:1 interviews with him, what he has told me personally and what John Brewer himself said about him.


Whyte Eagle, this is what I based my statement on:

I quote:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1299

There are a lot of things to consider when trying to authenticate a find such as Brewer's Cave, and certainly the individuals the discoverer associates with or associated with will help in shedding light on some issues.

John Heinerman claims to be just such an individual as he had befriended John Brewer during the time that Brewer was in process of escavating what we now call Brewer's Cave.

I've spoken with John Heinerman on a number of occasions over the years and he does tell a fascinating story, he’s never wavered much from his account you can find in his book “Hidden Treasures”. It’s a pretty good read, if you haven’t read it already, but towards the end it gets a little quirky … I would invite Heinerman to post his thoughts here, but he is not likely to do so for reasons he has disclosed to me. Heinerman is an advocate of the written word however and is curator of quite the library that he has collected over the years even writing a serious of other books not related to the discoveries of the ancients.

So the real question here is whether or not Heinerman actually made it into Brewer’s Cave as he claims to have done?

It is my opinion that he has never set foot inside Brewer’s Cave. I make that statement in light of numerous evidences that we have unearthed in our ongoing research on the matter.
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#47  Postby Southern Partisan » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:11 pm

Rev.Dr.Chapman wrote:Personally I have have followed the story of Burrows Cave for many years. I have found much too many inconsistencies in his story. I don't know where to begin, but I will mention just a few.

(1) To begin with, just what is Burrows' REAL first name. In some writings, he is called "John". Now in this writing, it is "Russel". Just what is it?...........................................

(4) He supposedly has put several million dollars into a Swiss bank account, but is still unable to buy groceries for his wife.
....................................................................Personally, I think he is one of the biggest con men of the century. :lol:

Your thoughts?


Please allow me to offer the following information:

While having never checked his Birth Certificate I believe that I can state quite emphatically that the first name is Russell (aka "Russ"). That is how I addressed him...when referring to himself he would use either Russ or Russell...and his wife...whom I worked with for years in the Hospital in Olney (Richmond Memorial Hospital) ALWAYS referred to him as "Russ".

I don't for one minute believe the Swiss Bank Account stories (and I HAVE read the "reports" from the "journalist" who supposedly tracked them down).

Allow me to provide one piece of secondary collateral information that I believe helps throw some light on the finances of Russ and his family during the period I was in closest contact with him....during the late 1980's the Hospital in Olney was in deep financial distress and it was rumoured that, amongst other cost-savings measures, that the Department Head structure was to be re-organized and some Department Heads let go in the process. I know for a fact, having had numerous discussions with Russ's wife and other fellow Department Heads, that Russ's family, including Russ, were extremely worried about IF Russ's wife would be one of the one's let go. Russ would constantly ask me if I had any news on the subject (believe it or not I was quite friendly with the house-keeping staff---and before you laugh let me assure you that the house-keepers were OFTEN the best source for up-to-the-minute information and current "scuttlebutt"---as well as being a close confidant of the CEO's secretary---believe me I can play "office politics" with the best if I have to).The angst I witnessed by both Russ and his Wife's during this period to me belied ANY chance of the family having "millions" stashed away in Swiss Bank accounts.

As to the con man assertion....let me put it this way....I would never enter into a business relationship with Russ, then or now. HOWEVER, and if I am misinterpreting please forgive me...the conclusion to your statement would seem to uphold some form of saying that because he (Russ) MAY be a con man----then he is prohibited from having made the discovery that he did make.

Presume for a moment that I had NOT been inside the Cave----my response to such a postulation would be that far too many examples exist of people of dubious reputation having made great discoveries/contributions for such a conclusion to be valid....the logical fallacies such a conclusion would perpetrate not-withstanding.

Fortunately----having been in the Cave-----I can categorically state that my apprehensions of Russ's business practices aside---those practices did NOT prevent the discovery he made.

Again, IF the above is not what YOU are trying to say, please accept my SINCERE AND GENUINE apology.

I just make the point because I KNOW there are many who WILL "leap" to the conclusion I have discussed above.

Regards to you,

SP
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#48  Postby SlideguitarMan » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:10 pm

and so in the end , there remains no solid irrefutable conclusion to this mystery ?

as though we have no trust , as though we lose out because of our conditioning to never trust .

and then again ,,,,

why should we trust ?
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#49  Postby Uley Bauer » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:44 pm

Can't believe what I'm hearing in regards to the above interest! The American public, for one, pays jillions of dollars every year for admissions & souvenirs to go into a hole in the ground & gawk at a dangling Stealegtight! I want to believe that some or most states would want to claim a hole in the ground & exploit it for coffer revenue?
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Re: Are Burrows Cave Artifacts Authentic?

Post Number:#50  Postby sanpete » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:37 pm

Uley Bauer wrote:Can't believe what I'm hearing in regards to the above interest! The American public, for one, pays jillions of dollars every year for admissions & souvenirs to go into a hole in the ground & gawk at a dangling Stealegtight! I want to believe that some or most states would want to claim a hole in the ground & exploit it for coffer revenue?

All that the states want to do is cover them up so nobody gets hurt whyel they are being stuped.
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