The Gold of Carre Shinob

Discussion of the ever elusive location we've come to know as Carre-Shinob ... is it fact or legend?

Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#176  Postby bayman » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:44 pm

If the Indians were sworn to an oath not divulge the location of the mine, then why did they tell him. Plus if they would not go anywhere near the mine, then how did they know of the exact location? Things in his book just do not add up.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#177  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:28 pm

I think nowadays you can't call yourself a treasure hunter unless you have a Ute blood-brother that swore you to secrecy. If you can't afford one of those you should at least have a 1/8th Navajo coworker who says you talk too much.

But in seriously, these stories have a set of repeating tropes that make no sense, but are told over and over again until they're just kind of accepted. I figure it's part of the entertaining fiction, and I try to weed through the clichés to see if there's any facts behind them. Sometimes there are.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#178  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:57 pm

That particular trope, "I swore not to tell and told anyways," seems to date back to at least the Caleb Rhoades story, and is perhaps the basis for most of the mythology surrounding it. He swore not to talk about it or show anyone, and sure enough first chance he gets he's telling all his neighbors and showing his partner. But wait, he didn't break his promise because he swore not to talk about ONE PLACE, and he knows of five places just like that one! Or maybe seven! He's talking about those other places, not the one he swore not to talk about!

But the Utes testify before congress that there's only one place and they don't want Caleb Rhoades anywhere near it.
Probably because they realized that the place he swore not to talk about and the place he was talking about were the same place.

But if they swore him to secrecy, why wouldn't they do the same with anyone told of that place? But then if everyone is sworn to secrecy, who keeps telling people about it? The first rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club. But fight club keeps getting bigger. It's not like it's an actual rule, right?
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#179  Postby Randy Bradford » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:31 am

SilenceIsGolden wrote:That particular trope, "I swore not to tell and told anyways," seems to date back to at least the Caleb Rhoades story, and is perhaps the basis for most of the mythology surrounding it. He swore not to talk about it or show anyone, and sure enough first chance he gets he's telling all his neighbors and showing his partner. But wait, he didn't break his promise because he swore not to talk about ONE PLACE, and he knows of five places just like that one! Or maybe seven! He's talking about those other places, not the one he swore not to talk about!

But the Utes testify before congress that there's only one place and they don't want Caleb Rhoades anywhere near it.
Probably because they realized that the place he swore not to talk about and the place he was talking about were the same place.

But if they swore him to secrecy, why wouldn't they do the same with anyone told of that place? But then if everyone is sworn to secrecy, who keeps telling people about it? The first rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club. But fight club keeps getting bigger. It's not like it's an actual rule, right?


You're such a cynic Silence...not to mention your Nickname and this topic are deeply ironic.

That being said, the first thing I thought when this topic was broached was about Boren and how he published so much but never exactly tells where, even when he's describing what he sees.

For me the real confusion comes with how much we know abotu the Rhoades Mines, that we really don't know about the Rhoades Mines. The Sacred Mine, the Sacred Mine 2, Rhoades Mine(s), the Carre Shin Ob, the Church Mine, the Brigham Young Mine...these are all used both synonymously AND independently. Sometimes by the same authors. The reality is the more that is written, the less we know or udnerstand. It's like trying to clear a pool of water by raking through the mud with a motorboat engine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, THE BIG DADDY OF MINES is reported to be in Upper Rock Creek, North of Whiterocks, near Moon Lake and neare Paradise Peak. Am I confused about this or is the information simply confusing and i've reported it accurately? Either could be true as I'm putting all this up by memory and not consulting any of the literature.

THEN you add in the additional mines Caleb foudn with his dads maps and suddenly you're dealign with a whole other ball of wax. It is confusing, frustrating, mind boggling...and deeply, inescapably interesting.

I thin it's easy to assume that the Rhoades lease was not for Caleb to exploit the Carre Shin Ob, it's also easy to assume most if not all of his other mines fell within this enormous land grant. Maybe I'm naieve, but I truly think Caleb found a way to honor his word AND take advantage of the mineral wealth potential of the Unitahs.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#180  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:14 pm

I am a cynic, Randy. Diogenes is one of my personal heroes. And my name on this site was chosen ironically.
But my opinion on this topic springs from a different upbringing is all. A different point of view. I was raised to understand that Caleb had one gold mine. That view certainly clears up all the confusion, but I don't expect anyone here to adopt it. It also takes away all the mystery.

what I said about the Utes testifying before Congress about there being only one mine and them not wanting Rhoades near it is a fact. Anyone that wants to can verify it with a bit of work.

I do believe that all those names and all those supposed locations in fact refer to a single mine, and to further complicate the tale, it's probably not even a mine.

There is - as far as I know - no evidence that Rhoades ever claimed to have more than one mine, the citation Rhoades and Boren give for this doesn't seem to exist. There is no evidence that the Chicken Creek Massacre ever happened that I'm aware of, and certainly no evidence in public record that I've seen that the Rhoades family was in any way involved or got treasure maps from it. None of this stuff is verifiable, and I think there's a very good chance these things are inventions of a particularly creative mind.

The story as you see it is confusing and interesting, and I offer that it was designed to be. The reality is simple, and a bit boring.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#181  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:25 pm

Regarding Rhoades and Carre Shinob I can say I never heard of the thing from the Rhoades family. They've never heard of it.

I have no particular opinion on it, except to note that the stories as told by Boren mirror the Rhoades Mines tales in astonishing detail, and if you removed the name of the mine or cave you couldn't tell a Shinob Story from a Rhoades Mine story. Several of the stories are clearly THE SAME story with the name changed.

that doesn't mean that Carre Shinob doesn't exist, or even that Rhoades knew of it. It just indicates to me that Boren and Rhoades version of Carre Shinob is probably just an extension of the Rhoades Mine myths which they excelled at producing.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#182  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:44 pm

For an example, compare the Aaron Daniels account of "THE SACRED INDIAN MINE," and Joe Walker's account of his trip to "Carre-Shin-Ob" with Butch Cassidy as described in Footprints in the Wilderness, and then compare to Hathenbruck's supposed description of the Rhoades Mine as described by Boren in Utah Goldrush.

It's immediately clear that these three accounts are talking about the exact same place. They are all natural caves that have been widened out, they all have a visible vein of gold running up the ceiling, they all have sacks of rich ore near the entrance, and in those sacks are perhaps some gold bars, and finally, they all have skeletons or other artifacts of the Spanish.

Of course all three places exist only in the mind of Boren, but if we were to pretend the stories were real we'd have to assume that all of these people and many more visited THE EXACT SAME SPOT. The rhoades mines, the sacred indian mine, boren's carre shinob, these are all the same story. It's probably not even a true story.

The likeliest conclusion is the one supported by the repeating of the same tropes in Boren's stories - that all of these are products of Boren's imagination, not history.

For comparison watch "Against a Crooked Sky," purportedly also by Boren. It's a terrible film, but contains story elements taken directly from Boren's views of the Rhoades Mine/Carre Shinob.
It too is fiction.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#183  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:29 am

A quick disclaimer and then I'll go ahead and practice the silence my name promises:

I don't know anything about Carre Shinob. Absolutely nothing. Never heard of it before I read Boren and Rhoades.

But it appears that in their seminal work those authors conflated that location with the Rhoades Mine, despite their apparent geographical disparity. Where they place Carre Shinob is not anywhere close to where the Rhoades Mine was supposedly located. That conflation at the outset allowed elements of each story to become intertwined and there is a great deal of overlap that probably shouldn't exist. That overlap was continued to great degree by Boren in his later work, generally with perplexing results.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#184  Postby sanpete » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:00 am

You can not belive what boring writes.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#185  Postby roughrockxxx » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:34 pm

Silence
as usual you have hit the nail on the head on the intertwing of the carrie and the rhoads mine. At least the odds are greatly in that favor. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
I believe anyone who has followed the book and, ask a few people who knew KRB can figure it out.
If the carrie does exist, it is a cave with remains and possibly artifacts from old indian chiefs. There is no lava tubes fill with gold and I highly doubt the home of the Aztecs.
The main point being they are two separate entities (in high probability) No one in this day and age knows for sure. KRB being the exception only because hes the author.

I think R Bradford did not mean for you to quit posting. I think he was trying to play a pun on your name. If not, maybe he needs to stop posting.
Your ideas are well thought out and gives others a good realistic idea of maybe what actually did go on , and not a lot of big imaginations.
Someone who has walked the talk
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#186  Postby sanpete » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:14 pm

SilenceIsGolden What ever you do, do not stop posting here. sanpet
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#187  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:28 pm

Thank you both, I agree 100%.

Nah, I didn't think Randy was telling me to shut up. :lol:
I talk too much and I know it. That's the other reason I chose this name.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#188  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:42 pm

Going back to oaths of silence though,
the only single public mention of Caleb Rhoades swearing an oath of silence that I've seen is in the very same document where he supposedly claimed to have knowledge of more than one valuable gold mine.

this document is apparently in the collection of Boren, and like most of the documents in his collection, nobody that I know of has ever seen it. Presumably nobody ever will.

I doubt it actually exists, just as I doubt Caleb Rhoades actually swore any oath regarding the location of any mine.
Just as the people that showed Boren a cave full of gold never swore to keep the location secret simply because those people and that cave don't exist.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#189  Postby Randy W Lewis » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:22 pm

silence I have to agree with you on this one,,, I doubt Caleb ever was shown the carrie,,,, he had too many other locations alot closer ,, why even bother,, the oath... on the church mines maybe well maybe one of them,, the others no or he wouldn't have told FWC..
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#190  Postby Randy Bradford » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:40 pm

roughrockxxx wrote:I think R Bradford did not mean for you to quit posting. I think he was trying to play a pun on your name. If not, maybe he needs to stop posting.
Your ideas are well thought out and gives others a good realistic idea of maybe what actually did go on , and not a lot of big imaginations.
Someone who has walked the talk


I think everyone here knows me better than that, and if they don't they must not be paying any attention at all.

Nothing but respect for roughrockxxx and Silence.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#191  Postby mrjimsfc » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:09 pm

It's my understanding that "Silence" was at one time very respected in the music community. Simon and Garfunkel honored him with a piece called "The songs of Silence". I was surprised to find out that he could sing at all! :89:
"Nobody wants to listen to the voice of reason when there's a good hysteria to be had. Humans are like that."
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#192  Postby sanpete » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:32 pm

Randy Bradford wrote:
roughrockxxx wrote:I think R Bradford did not mean for you to quit posting. I think he was trying to play a pun on your name. If not, maybe he needs to stop posting.
Your ideas are well thought out and gives others a good realistic idea of maybe what actually did go on , and not a lot of big imaginations.
Someone who has walked the talk


I think everyone here knows me better than that, and if they don't they must not be paying any attention at all.

Nothing but respect for roughrockxxx and Silence.[/qWHAT WHAT do you mean by "paying attention"? I am to broke to "pay attention"
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#193  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:23 pm

:rofl:

Randy W Lewis wrote: he had too many other locations alot closer ,, why even bother,,

Yeah, he was an amazingly busy old man.

Randy W Lewis wrote:the oath... on the church mines maybe well maybe one of them,,

I think the oath story might have screwed him in the long run.

It established permissive use, and as long as the Utes gave him permission to trespass and take gold, they could revoke that permission.
He would've been much better off legally if he didn't have permission, then he could've used adverse possession laws to gain ownership. Squatter's rights.
I kinda think he and Hathenbruck realized that eventually. It would explain them building cabins all over and then dragging a heavy old camera clear into Grandaddy basin to take pictures of the thing.

Also probably one reason those cabins were destroyed. If Rhoades and Hathenbruck didn't have permission to build them and they were still standing today, it might mean you or me still owns them.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#194  Postby Kanabite » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:36 pm

so what is up with the whole Caleb Rhodes" treasurer of the Danites" thing?
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#195  Postby Kanabite » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:15 pm

maybe its treasurer of the Mormon militia, heck i cant remember , lol and what would have been the difference, within the leadership way back when?
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#196  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:24 pm

Never heard of it.
I don't think he held any significant positions within the Church. He was rumored to be a Danite, but Danites in Utah might have just been a rumor too. Hard to say. Ask Zane Grey I guess.

His dad would be a more likely candidate since he actually held rank in the militia and was an adult when the Danites were active.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#197  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:35 am

Kanabite, on a more personal note, his first wife was my wife's great great grandmother. Malinda Powell-Rhoades-Gammage-Darlington. She had no particular love for Caleb Rhoades, but afaik she never accused him of murder or any of the nocturnal habits of the Danites. She complained that Caleb was never home, whether that's because he was hunting gold in the Uintas for months at a time as so many people say or because he had other wives as some have speculated I'll never know. It seems IF he was a Danite or any member of a vigilance committee Malinda would've mentioned it though. She wasn't impressed with him, and could apparently be counted on to reveal any of his darker dealings. She outlived him by decades, so I've known a couple people that knew her personally.

From what I've heard Caleb had a nasty temper, a family trait from what I've seen. The Rhoades I know are honest to a fault, loyal as anything, but you don't want to get on their bad side. I've never heard of Caleb breaking the law or enforcing it though. I'm certain I haven't heard everything she knew, I suppose nobody has or will.
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#198  Postby Kanabite » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:58 am

thanks , its been so long since i really even thought about this stuff , i might be a little fuzzy on it myself here.It's hard to find out things that may or may not relate to guys like this . I'm not a big fan of the treasure book's version , so when you get into rumors of all that gold and possible involvement with "shady groups" , just where would somebody look for alternate answers?? who knows ?
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Re: The Gold of Carre Shinob

Post Number:#199  Postby SilenceIsGolden » Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:29 pm

Well it's the duty of a person making an extraordinary claim to bring some compelling evidence to back that claim.

So when presented with something extraordinary about Caleb Rhoades, and no real evidence to base the idea on, I just reject the claim as a fabrication.

Boren for example claims that he headed a squad of outlaws and gunfighters in protection of his massive treasure. The sources Boren cites are in his private collection, not available for examination. Barring Boren presenting original documents for examination that support his claim, it's probably safe to assume he made the whole thing up. No alternative is necessary, a lie doesn't need to be balanced by an equal and opposite reality.
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outlaws

Post Number:#200  Postby Randy W Lewis » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:44 am

Silence ( Outlaws)
I'm afraid those facts came from me,, Butch's gang along with Matt Warner were with FWC along with Josie Bassett,, If you remember I put pictures in the Utah Gold Rush of these fellows up in the Basin,, they are the only pictures of Butch and his gang to exist,, and Josie Bassett ,, Josie claimed she was with Butch ,, I have the facts to prove it,,

they were protecting FWC from Jessie knight ,, who was in cahoots with reed and smoot,, what a tangled political mess,, not much different from the crooked politicians of today

what a deal outlaws were more trustworthy than our Gov,,, sounds just like today.. Senator Mike Lee is about the only hope we have,, and Hatch is choppin away at him,, along with Jon Huntsman Sr,,, what a bunch of low lifes,,,
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