Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Discussion of the ever elusive location we've come to know as Carre-Shinob ... is it fact or legend?

Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#1  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:04 pm

Salt Lake Tribune, Sunday May 7, 1950

MADRE DE ORO DEL UINTAH

Whether you believe this tale or not you'll find it fascinating. If you believe it, you'll have a difficult time restraining yourself from leaving today for an extended trip into the Uinta Mountains!

If historians write correctly, then one Francisio Valquez de Coronado, who was a high Spanish official, who left Compostela, Mexico, on January 1st 1540. He was at the head of an expedition that went into what is now New Mexico, searching for the Seven Cities of Gold, or Ciboia, where the houses were said to have been constructed of pure gold!

Failing to find these mythical cities, he dispatched one of his lieutenants, Garica Lopez de Cardenas, with 12 men, and told them to search for those cities and for the gold to the north and west. Then a plan to meet up was set and the two parties departed going their separate ways. Just where Cardenas and his men went we do not know, but Young, in his book, "The Founding of Utah," states they might have reached the eastern part of what is now Utah. Other writers make mention of the same fact. Just where they went, what they found or what they did seems shrouded in mystery. Now let's jump about four centuries.
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#2  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:04 pm

Late Summer, 1922
By James P. Sharp

In the late summer of 1922 a tired team hitched to a buggy stopped at my place on the upper Provo. What I took to be five Indians were riding in it. One asked permission to camp in the pasture for the night. They were gone when I arose the next morning but about two weeks later they returned.

They said about as much as they had on their first visit and departed. They kept this up for three years with no explanation. I knew Indians well enough to know that when the time came they would talk.

One evening while I was feeding the chickens they came. The one who had done all of the talking came over to where I was and said, "I am not an Indian but have been a missionary to them down at Indianola for nearly 40 years. My name is Mormon V. Selman and I want to present to you an English-Ute dictionary that I have had printed."

I took it and thanked him for it. And when he saw I was apparently pleased with it said, "I have something here I wish to show you." He took from his jumper pocket something wrapped in a large bandana handkerchief. He was smiling, something I had never seen him do before, as he unwrapped it."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#3  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:05 pm

Rich Gold Ore

He brought forth a piece of gold-bearing rock about two inches long, one inch wide and one half inch thick. This he handed to me. I looked at it and it appeared to be some sort of a honeycombed rock with the wax part all strings of gold and some of the cells full of what appeared to me to be pure gold. I handed it back and then he began rewrapping it up.

When it was again placed back in his pocket he said, "For many years we have sat around the council fires and listened to the old chiefs or the medicine man, tell of the legends and traditions of the Indians of the Uintah Basin. One night each year we gather around the council fire and each leader, or underchief, tells of some heroic deeds certain braves have accomplished. When they have all finished then either the medicine man or the highest chief selects the one, or ones, to be rewarded. Usually a small piece of gold is given for the brave to carry in his medicine bag."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#4  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:05 pm

Legend About Whites

"A few nights ago as we sat around the fire the tales were told and imagine my surprise, for my name had never once been mentioned, when the chief arose and presented me with this piece of gold. Why that is the largest piece I have ever seen given any warrior and to think he should give it to me is almost beyond belief."

There as a long silence and then he continued: "There is a place out in the basin that the Indians consider holy. No one but the medicine man or the chief dare go there. They call it Carre-Shin-Ob. Which means 'There, the Great Spirit'. (this language is the language of the ancients).

"One of their legends has to do with the first white men who went into that country. They claim it was many, many years ago, when seven white men riding horses went there. They were hunting for 'money rock,' which is gold."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#5  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:06 pm

They Tortured Him

"They came from the east and crossed Green River at the old Indian ford and camped near Vernal (Ashley Center). Then one Indian happened to take out the contents of his medicine bag and in it was a gold nugget. Immediately they asked where he got it and where it came from. He would not tell, could not, for he did not know. They tortured him and he died without saying a word.

"Those white men had sticks that shot fire which were the first ones those Indians had ever seen and to demonstrate their power they shot another brave. Then the Indians supposed they were some of the Great White Spirits they had been taught would come to them. When the men demanded their bows, arrows and spears they readily gave them up.
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#6  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:07 pm

Promised Two Baskets
"Then they took a young son of the chief and tortured him until he died, but the chief would not talk. Another son they killed and then the Medicine man told those men if they would go away he would fill two baskets full of that rock they wanted. They picked out tow of the largest baskets the Indians had but the medicine man said he could not carry so much. Then they loaned him a pack mule and he departed late in the evening just as it started to rain.

"When he returned early the next morning it was still raining. The white men looked at the gold and were very excited. Immediately two men saddled two horses and took two pack animals and started to back-track the tracks of the medicine man and the mule. In vain the medicine man protested.

"All day long that medicine man was busy making strong medicine that would be stronger than the white men had, even stronger than their fire sticks. Evening came and the two men returned, their mules staggering under heavy loads."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#7  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:08 pm

He Denounced Them

"The medicine man met them and denounced them and called upon his Great Spirit to come to their assistance, for now he knew these were not Great Spirits for if they had been they would have known where Carre-Shin-Ob was. One of the men grew angry with him and tried to shoot him. Another tried but his gun would not fire. You see, their powder was wet.

"Seeing this, the medicine man called upon his people, from the high chief to the little boy to join with him and drive those men away. Grasping sticks, stones and everything they could find, they soon overpowered the white men, and when they recovered their bows and arrows, they made the white men put saddles on their horses and depart, but they went along to the ford to be sure they would not return. Not one piece of their precious or sacred rock did the white men take away with them. For many nights the medicine man was busy carrying all that 'money rock' back to Carre-Shin-Ob.

"One of the Indians called Selman said, 'Supper is ready. The next time I come I will tell you more."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#8  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:08 pm

Waited His Return

"Anxiously I waited his return the following summer. Selman had aged considerably. He seemed more pleased than ever to see me. Again we sat on those granary steps but he had little to say. Then it was he that told me there were only two white men remaining alive who knew the location of their sacred place and on this visit he was going to try to get them to tell their information to some of the younger chiefs or to him.

"Two weeks later they returned. He seemed terribly down-hearted. Late that evening he called me out of my house and said: 'As we sat around the council fire I told those two old chiefs how t hey had honored me by giving me that piece of gold the year before, and now I had a request to make of them. I wanted them to tell someone where that gold was situated so when they died the secret would not die with them."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#9  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:09 pm

Left Council Fire

"Those two old chiefs left the council fire and went out into the open for quite some time. When they returned, one said, better the secret die with them, than tell the younger chiefs, for they did not trust them and were afraid they would get the gold and sell it to the white men for whisky, and if they did then the place would no longer be fit for the Great Spirit to dwell in when he came.

"Then I learned something else from them I had never heard before. One summer the whole tribe went up north someplace for a sort of a reunion and when they returned the medicine man discovered someone had been to that sacred place, took all of the loose gold and had dug a tunnel into the mountain and took much more of the gold."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#10  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:10 pm

Went After Thieves

"The old chief who told it said at that time he was a young brave and he said it happened shortly after the Mormons came to Utah. He and six others were sent after the thieves, who left a plane trail to follow. Over the mountains they went and finally down the Provo river and then south to somewhere near Nephi, where they caught up with some Mexicans who had a lot of little mules and some fine riding horses.

"They killed those men and took the whole string of horses and mules up Salt Creek Canyon and over Sanpete mountain and back to a spot near the mine where the old medicine men took over. Each night he would take a mule with a load of the ore to that sacred place, put the ore back in the mine and then take the mule a way off and kill it so it's spirit could not communicate with the other mules. He said, when he unloaded a mule, he would put the leather pack bags on top of the ore so as to be a warning to anyone else not to take that gold.

"He was silent for some time and then he said, 'My Father used to tell of a time in the early days when a pack train came down Provo and camped at his place for a few days to rest up the small pack mules. He said they loaded those animals with a heavy pack load that did not appear to be very large but it was all those mules could carry.

"The men kept an armed guard at their camp and no one was allowed near. He said they stayed a few days and went south and a few days later there was a report that some Indians had killed those men down on Chicken Creek (Levan, Utah) and had stolen the mules and horses and what ever those animals were loaded with.

"No one suspected that Indians would steal a pack train and everybody decided it was someone who had dressed up as Indians. They laid the blame on Indians who were innocent but after hearing that old chief talk I am led to the belief that the Indians really did the killing.

"The following year no Selman returned. The Indians informed me he had died but died happy."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#11  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:10 pm

Follow Trail Farther?

"Shall we follow the trail farther? Then let us skip over the years until 1945, to a rooming house on 1st Ave. in Salt Lake City, Utah.

He was slowly rocking back and forth in an easy chair when we entered the room. His snow white hair bespoke his age - eighty seven he had previously told me. His wife said, 'Joe, a visitor to see you.' Evidently he did not hear her. The she said in a rather harsh voice, 'JOE.' He tottered to his feet. His right hand dropped to his hip. There was a look of do or die on his face as he turned and looked or way. Seeing who it was he said, 'Was just a thinking about the time when Butch Cassidy, Elza Lay and I stole the Castle gate payroll. A body has to be mighty careful even now and I was just thinking what I'd do if some one sneaked up behind me when you came in. Sit down, so, sit down. What's on your mind?'

"Well last time you told me some day you would tell me about a gold mine you knew about in the Uinta Basin but right now you have me wondering if you ever rode with Butch. Did you?"
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#12  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:11 pm

About That Gold Mine

"Sure did, and those were the happy days. Say when we rode into Castle Gate and lifted that payroll I never had so much fun in so short a time in my whole life. That was good haul. But about that gold mine ----

"You see it was this way. Shortly after we divided that Castle Gate money, me and Butch were riding from the Roost (Robber's Roost) out to Brown's Hole and not wanting to be too conspicuous, we were trying to avoid seeing too many people. We cut across west of Vernal and when we entered the mountains to the northwest of that town it began to sprinkle.

"Butch spurred his horse and we rode up a side canyon and stopped near some thick brush. We left our horses here and ran like hell. I followed right behind him and into an old mine tunnel we went just as the rain came down in buckets full."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#13  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:11 pm

Old Spanish Mine

"Now that tunnel was not over five feet high and three feet wide and was piled about two feet deep with rocks. When we had sat down on some old leather pack bags Butch told me this mine was the one the old Spaniards had worked. They called it, 'The Madre de Oro del Uinta' which means The Gold of the Uinta!

"Butch sure knew his history and knew a lot the Indians had told him for he was friendly with them. As we sat there I reached under that leather bag and got a rock. Gosh it was heavy. I took it to the mouth of the tunnel and say it shined like almost solid gold. Butch called me to come back and told me any one who took any of that gold would have the curse of God placed upon him. Said in early days Brigham Young was good to the Indians and they gave him a lot of this gold and one day an old Indian told him if he would go out there he would give him all a pack horse could carry away."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#14  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:12 pm

Never Got to Mine

"Brigham told that Indian he could not get away but would send Tom Rhodes with a pack horse loaded with food and clothes if the Indians would fill the pack bags full of that gold. Old Tom, Butch says, made three or four trips out there but never got to the mine. The Indians would not let him go where they got the rock. They said it was the place for their Gods to live.

"I slipped a small piece of that gold in my pocket but when we stepped outside Butch drew his gun and told me to put it back. How the hell did he know I had it? But Butch he knew everything. Well I went back and put that piece of rock about the size of my hand on top of one of those leather bags and came back out for I knew Butch was not fooling.

"When it stopped raining, we rode away and Butch made me promise I would never go there again."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#15  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:13 pm

Not Afraid of Anything

"When the Wild Bunch broke up, that was what we were called who rode with Butch, it was mighty slim picking for some of us, so one day I got two of the men who I knew were not afraid of God, man or devil or the curse of God and told them about that gold.

"We got eight fine horses and a pack outfit for heavy work and a light one. Then we rode out and camped about half a mile from the mine for almost a week just to see if there were any Utes watching. We saw none. Then one night I took one of those men and had a hard time finding it for you see the timbers had rotted and it had caved in at the entrance. We had to crawl in on our hands and knees.

"Once inside we lit some matches and there on top of that leather bag was the same piece of gold I had put there years ago. Then we went back to camp and laid these plans. The next morning I was to take five horses and the heavy pack and go down to the ford at Green River and wait. They were to wait until night and go to the mine and get not over one hundred pounds of that gold ore and make a swift ride to where I was, change horses and head for Denver and sell the ore and give me my share in cash. If we made it then we would make other trips.

"I got to the ford and staked my horses around and built a fire an got supper but did not go to bed for I knew they could make it down there by about three in the morning so sat up and kept the fire going so they would not miss me.

"Daylight came and no men. Then sun up and along came three Indians. They stopped and talked with me and just then we saw those two men coming but mighty slow. When they saw the Indians with me they let go of the rope on the pack horses and lit out for the river, jumped their horses off just below the ford and started across. They slipped off the horses and each grabbed his horse's tail and they started to swim across.

"When the horses were about a quarter of the way across they decided to turn back. The men let go and tried to get hold of the bridle reins but both went down and we never saw them come up."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#16  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:14 pm

Those Darned Fools

"The horses came out right where we were and say, those durned fools had about one hundred pounds of gold tied in a sack on each saddle. I'll bet they had a least fifty pounds in their pockets and that was why they could not swim.

"The Indians looked at the sacks and opened one and saw it was gold. Then they went over to the pack horse who was too tired to even try to stand up and say, they must have had a least two hundred and fifty pounds of gold on that little pack saddle.

"Now the Indians talked a short time and one got on his horse and rode like the clatter wheels of hell. I thought it was time for me to get going but those two Utes told me to stay there."
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#17  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:14 pm

I Lied Out of It

"About sundown that Indian and an old chief and two or three more came and examined the gold and asked me a lot of questions but I lied out of it. Then they searched me and for once I was lucky for I never had one bit of that gold on me.

"Just at nightfall they re-loaded those three horses and the old chief started back alone. The others stayed with me and the next morning let me go to Brown's Hole. Now I'm telling you if them two men had not made damned hogs of themselves, maybe we might have got away with that gold, and if we had then we would have took more and now I would not be where I am with scarcely a thin dime to my name but I guess Butch was right. He said there was a curse upon anyone who took that gold and as for me, well I'll hold on to that thin dime as long as I can but never again will I go back to where there must be all of a million dollars in almost pure gold just piled up in an old tunnel."
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The Carrie & Boren!

Post Number:#18  Postby Lostaslost » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:15 pm

Whyte I am glad you put this on the board. If I recall right Boren never stated that this came out of the newspaper. Maybe he id get it from Young's book. Anyway I wonder how many called Boren a lier on this story? I guess now I will be wondering how far back the Anchiets go with the word Carrie-Shinob. Young in his book The Founding of Utah is basically saying that Montezuma's Treasure is in the Uintas I would think. Wonder just what he may have been told and by who.

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Rhoades and Boren got it from Sharp.

Post Number:#19  Postby bookcliff48 » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:16 pm

Obviously Gale Rhoades and Kerry Boren got their information from James Sharp. They even mentioned interviewing him in their book. There is an even earlier reference to Towats and Shinob than the 1950 article by James Sharp. It goes back to about 1931. Towats is the Father and Shinob is the Son. Of course there is a lot more to it than that.

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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#20  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:17 pm

BookCliff48 ... would you happen to have a reference for the 1931 mention of the name?
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#21  Postby Doug Hole » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:17 pm

Thanks Whyte Eagle... very interesting reading
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Carre-Shin-Ob

Post Number:#22  Postby Trigace » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:18 pm

Whyte-
Yes, it appears that the reference to the Carre-Shin-Ob predates Boren's and Thompson's books. As stated, they probably got their information from James Sharp. There could very well be a mine referred to as the Carre-Shin-Ob by the Indians. But I have found no reference to it being Montezuma's Treasure or "The Nephite Horde" or any kind of a treasure cache with many ancient records and artifacts, except in some of these modern writers' books such as Boren's where he has the so-called journal of Isaac Morley, or his reference to Jesse Knight, or the Pete Miller story (where he would have had to hike about 28 miles in one day, alone, over some of the most steep and rugged country of the Uintahs).

The "Madre de Oro del Uinta" stories you quoted from Bascom's book likewise do not describe any ancient artifacts as Boren claims are in the Carre. It says many years ago the Indians returned gold taken from the Carre by 7 white men (probably Spaniards). No articfacts/records mentioned. Then soon after the Mormons came to the area a group of Mexicans took all the loose gold and dug a tunnel to get more gold. They were followed and killed by the Indians and the gold was returned to the Carre, which is now a mine tunnel. Again, no mention of ancient artifacts, just gold ore. Later, Joe Walker was shown the mine tunnel by Butch Cassidy (by the way, why would the Indians show Butch the sacred mine?) Joe and a couple of others later tried to take some of the gold but were stopped by the Indians. The only artifacts mentioned were the leather saddle bags that the gold ore was in after being returned from the Levan massacre site.

All of these and earlier stories talk about gold and gold ore being taken from mines but none of them refer to all the ancient artifacts Boren claims to have seen or learned about from others. I think there very well could be a mine or several mines where gold or silver was mined by the Spaniards or Mexicans but I'm very skeptical of there being a Carre-Shin-ob with all the fantastic things found in it as claimed to have been seen by a few writers or people they write about.
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#23  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:18 pm

Trigace ... The "Madre de Oro del Uinta" stories were part of the newspaper article from 1950 ... I wasn't aware that Dale Bascom had them in his book ...
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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#24  Postby Lostaslost » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:18 pm

I would suggest to all to follow up on The Treasures of Utah at Randy Bradfords site. See what has been written and or posted on it under The Big LOU. Very interesting post there also.

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Re: Origins of the name "Carre-Shinob" ...

Post Number:#25  Postby Florida Photographer » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:19 pm

There may have been a regular Spanish mine with good ore that a Spanish Priest might have named "Kyrio Soin Opnev".
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