Carbon Dating Results

Discussion relating to the events surrounding the discovery of Brewers Cave ...

Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#1  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:08 pm

In 2004, after a good period of time tracking down various artifacts that had been reported to have come from Brewers Cave, we (AHRF) were fortunate enough to find ourselves in conversation with the then owner / caretaker of one of the boxes which had come out of Brewer's Cave. This individual also had the original bark that had been wrapped around the box and sealed with pine pitch.

After some discussion we were granted permission to let one of our archaeologists from the AHRF to remove a small sample from the bark to perform some testing to see if it would be possible to obtain a date for the artifact. Needless to say, the test results were nothing short of amazing. The bark which had encased the box at the time John Brewer found it dated back to between 5 BC and 390 BC!

This information has not been published to the public prior to this year when an article was given to Wayne May to publish in one of the Ancient American publications. We have decided to post this information here on the forum as well since we are now running into references to this information and in some cases it is being skewed by those giving the reports. Please feel free to direct anyone who may be quoting this information erroneously to this post.

The following is a copy of one of the reports we created shortly after receiving the results. One interesting note, we had the carbon dating performed at two separate laboratories.

***We've also removed a couple of names of those individuals who wish to remain anonymous at this time.




Radiocarbon Dating of Bark Sample from Brewer's Cave, Manti Area
Steven E. Jones
Professor of Physics
Brigham Young University
January 20, 2005


A number of stone boxes, covered with bark and pitch, were discovered by John Brewer in the Manti, Utah, area nearly fifty years ago. While the authenticity of these discoveries has been the subject of intense controversy, radiocarbon dating of the bark has not previously been performed by archaeologists or other scientists. This oversight is striking, since an accurate radiocarbon age would do much to ascertain whether the artifacts are ancient, or of modem manufacture (as claimed by some archaeologists).

Here we report the results of the first radiocarbon dating of a bark sample from one of these stone boxes. The sample was provided by ****** ******** from material provided originally by John Brewer. The bark was brought by ** ****** ****** to Professor Steven E. Jones of Brigham Young University on March 3, 2004, under the auspices of the Ancient Historical Research Foundation. The sample was examined then taken to Prof. Stephen Nelson and David Tingey, both of the BYU Department of Geology, for dating using the BYU radiocarbon-dating system.

The bark sample was cleaned with acetone then propanol, then subjected to acid and base treatments. These steps were necessary to remove humic acids and residues from bacteria and other organisms, which could introduce fresh carbon 14 and thus produce a more recent (incorrect) age. After these standard procedures, essentially just cellulose from the bark remained.

The cellulose material was subjected to standard chemical processes, finally to produce liquid C6H6 (benzene) which was placed in a vial with a scintillant. This carbon-bearing vial was then placed into two separate scintillation counter instruments to record the carbon-14 radioactivity of the carbon sample.

Both instruments gave essentially the same radiocarbon age for the Brewercave bark sample. The Guardian instrument provided an age of approximately 2161 years BP (Before Present). Since this age seemed incredibly old to the scientists doing the age analysis, the Brewer-bark sample was placed into the Quantalus 1440 ultra-low background detector. This instrument includes 1500 pounds of lead to block cosmic ray interference. The sample was then analyzed ten times, at different times of the day to avoid any possibility of error.

The final result confirmed the age determined by the Guardian instrument:

Percent modern carbon: (75.9 +/- 0.6)
Radiocarbon age: (2161 +/- 70)
BP Calibrated age (2 sigma): 5 BC to 390 BC

With a radiocarbon age of 5 BC to 390 BC, the Brewer bark sample is thus scientifically demonstrated to be very old. The Brewer findings (if further verified) could force archaeologists to re-write currently accepted history of the area. It is extremely unlikely that the boxes in question could have been covered with bark this old by an alleged hoaxer, for that would require the individual to find intact bark that was already two thousand years old. Rather, the bark was evidently used anciently and preserved by pitch used to seal it and by its being kept in a rather dry-cave environment.

The bark used to cover the stone box in question is indeed ancient. It is the opinion of this researcher that the findings and claims of John Brewer should be re-examined in light of this new, positive evidence for the antiquity of these boxes. It would be highly desirable to re-open the cave where the box was found, with certified archaeologists present (such as *** ****** of the Ancient Historical Research Foundation). Finding similar artifacts in their original undisturbed context would allow final verification of John Brewer's claims.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#2  Postby Randy Bradford » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:17 pm

Kind of curious why this information is jsut now coing to light when the tests were carried out 6 years ago, why the delay? Also pretty shocked there isn't a lot more information on here about this particualr site. SOmeone posted a schematic of the cave that Brewer supposedly drew himself, pretty intresting actually...
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#3  Postby Whyte Eagle » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:11 pm

Randy Bradford wrote:Kind of curious why this information is jsut now coing to light when the tests were carried out 6 years ago, why the delay?


It's a good question Randy ... Lets just say that at the time we did the testing circumstances were such that bringing this information to light would have been very unfavorable for a number of reasons. We originally made a public announcement concerning the information at the symposium we held at BYU ... and the information was available through selected gatherings and what not, but was not presented publicly in a hard copy format. This information has since been included in a couple of publications erroneously and is starting to propagate further in other forms of media in a convoluted state. I've personally seen it in at least three publications, all of which were in error and have heard it mentioned in certain circles of influence, again with the wrong information.

We felt that it might be in order to present the documented information we (AHRF) originally put together so that it can be rightfully quoted in the proper context.

Randy Bradford wrote:SOmeone posted a schematic of the cave that Brewer supposedly drew himself, pretty intresting actually...


As for the schematic ... we also presented it at the same symposium, that was the first time I had ever seen it presented at a public event like that ...
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#4  Postby Randy Bradford » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:41 pm

It's interesting to me how little is spoken on this topic, mostly because it's a relatively current story and evidenced, authentic or otherwise. The burning question for me is what happened to the Brrewer artifacts after his death and the current status of his cave(s)...
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#5  Postby sanpet » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:28 pm

Here we go again-johnny brewer and all his bs. I Know some people who were screwed out of $2,700. each on his counterfeit work. To bad that one of them broke into his house and found all of his tools, rock and medals under his bed and other places. I personally knew johnny brewer not well but enough to know not to have any money doings with him.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#6  Postby Randy Bradford » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:29 pm

sanpet wrote:Here we go again-johnny brewer and all his bs. I Know some people who were screwed out of $2,700. each on his counterfeit work. To bad that one of them broke into his house and found all of his tools, rock and medals under his bed and other places. I personally knew johnny brewer not well but enough to know not to have any money doings with him.


That's a good bit of insight Sanpete, my guess is some will say he had real one's and profited from fake ones...Burrows has the same perspective I believe. If the stories are to be believed the plates, real or otherwise, brought him a fair amount of grief. One thing I had never thought about before just now is how much work it would take to coordinate a fake story, with the evidence, with a journal AND incorporating others such as john Heinerman in his work. I don't know what Heinerman's reputation is like overall, but having an unconnected (apparently) witness involved sheds some degree of credibility. Frankly I would like to know more about the OTHER cave(s) he was exploring as well. All signs point to the original being filled in (By Brewer, the Church, a third party, depends who you ask) but it seems far more likely the over cave(s) may still be in tact and accessible.

Something else I found interesting is that the schematic seems to suggest the room was just the beginning of a larger complex (or simply a much larger room) as the back was filled in with dirt. The schematic is almost too good to be true in terms of the light it sheds on things.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#7  Postby Whyte Eagle » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:01 pm

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Randy Bradford wrote:One thing I had never thought about before just now is how much work it would take to coordinate a fake story, with the evidence, with a journal AND incorporating others such as john Heinerman in his work. I don't know what Heinerman's reputation is like overall, but having an unconnected (apparently) witness involved sheds some degree of credibility.


There are a lot of things to consider when trying to authenticate a find such as Brewer's Cave, and certainly the individuals the discoverer associates with or associated with will help in shedding light on some issues.

I've spoken with John Heinerman on a number of occasions over the years and he does tell a fascinating story, he’s never wavered much from his account you can find in his book “Hidden Treasures”. It’s a pretty good read, if you haven’t read it already, but towards the end it gets a little quirky … I would invite Heinerman to post his thoughts here, but he is not likely to do so for reasons he has disclosed to me. Heinerman is an advocate of the written word however and is curator of quite the library that he has collected over the years even writing a serious of other books not related to the discoveries of the ancients.

So the real question here is whether or not Heinerman actually made it into Brewer’s Cave as he claims to have done?

It is my opinion that he has never set foot inside Brewer’s Cave. I make that statement in light of numerous evidences that we have unearthed in our ongoing research on the matter.

As for Brewer’s journal … I think it depends on which one you read, the public version that was graciously put into circulation for the purposes of planting some disinformation, or the real one that John kept private.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#8  Postby Whyte Eagle » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:16 pm

BTW ... Here's another interesting tidbit of information. When viewing the cover of the book "Hidden Treasures" the viewer is lead to believe they are looking at two separate mummified faces, presumably of the two mummies reported to be entombed in Brewer's Cave.

I did a little photo work and put two images of the book cover side by side. As you can see by the image below, it turns out that the cover of the book actually contains the face of only one mummy that has been split in half and transposed to make it look as though there were two separate faces.

On my last visit with Heinerman, I brought this to his attention and showed him what I had done … at that time he told me that the image on the cover of his book was indeed the image of only one mummy from another discovery at a different location. He also told me the story of how and where this other location had been found, and it is a very interesting location indeed.

The stone box featured on the cover between the two faces was reported to have come from Brewers Cave, but we have not been able to confirm this to date … John claims to have it in his possession at the time of my last visit with him.

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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#9  Postby Beauseant » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:08 pm

Great job Whyte Eagle. Thanks for posting this information. Very impressed.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#10  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:06 pm

Thanks Beaseant ... There's more information to come, so check back often ...
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#11  Postby sanpet » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:56 pm

Whyte Eagle I;m going to try to e-mail a page to you that has a little something about jb and his son. I personally do not believe much about the page.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#12  Postby littlered » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:52 pm

sanpete, None of my business as I am new to this forum but it seems to me that some local authority should visit with you since you claim to know that someone broke in to Johnny Brewers home and retrieved tools, metals, etc because last time I checked it is still illegal to break in to someone's home regardless the reason. You seem to be very cinical about this find but I have to tell you that I have known about it for at least thirty years and I have been hoping someone would finally prove what Mr. Brewer found and stop all the gossip and harrasment that the family has been subjected to. I just recently found this forum while searching the web and was shocked that it was being discussed openly. I know absolutely nothing about the cave and what I think I do know is hearsay from family members before they all quit talking to me about thirty years ago. I know several of Johnny Brewer's brothers and one sister as well as one of his sons that are still in Sanpete. I don't see any of them often but the next time I do see any of them I will have to try to get them to talk to me again in light of what I am learning on this forum. I have not read Dr. Heinerman's book but I have it ordered and should have it in my hands in a couple of days.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#13  Postby littlered » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:59 pm

One more thing for anyone who might have some time to respond. Is their any more information out there in hard copy form that will shed any light to Mr. Brewer's discovery? The carbon dating from the bark that enclosed the box was amazing and should bear some credence to this story. At least to someone that is not already convinced that it is a fraud.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#14  Postby sanpet » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Local authority's knew about it at the time it happened. What story's do you know about his son that was murred?
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#15  Postby littlered » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:02 pm

I dont know much about it at all but I heard that after the loss of his son he became very elusive about the whole thing. I tried to meet with him to see if I could get him to tell me anything at all about the cave but he refused to even meet me. I had heard from family members that after the loss of his son he was ready to wash his hands of the whole thing. I actually live 1200 miles from Sanpete but I have lived in Sanpete on two different occasions and I would live there again if I could afford to because I have several very good friends there that I don't get to see often enough. When I first heard about this I was totally blown away at the historical aspect of this find and as I said I have been hoping for a very long time that this would be verified so it could all go public. I wish my memory was good enough so that I could remember the plate that I was allowed to inspect thirty years ago and see if it matches anything that might show up on a forum some day. I am hungry for any information that you might share about this though. Thanks
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#16  Postby littlered » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:06 am

Is there any way to gain access to John Brewer's journal?
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#17  Postby Whyte Eagle » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:24 am

littlered wrote:Is there any way to gain access to John Brewer's journal?


To my knowledge his personal journal is not available publicly, there is a copy which has been modified that is available through certain publications and other media ...
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#18  Postby sanpet » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:45 pm

OK here is the different ways that johnny brewers son was "killed". One way was jb and his son had discovered a big cavern that went into Az, Id, Wy, and Nv. In side the cavern where people and things from other planet's working on all kinds of further war weapons. The people were mostly Mormons and fed. government people. jb and his son were caught by the security under there and were thrown out with a thereat of death if they told about this place. The son was caught by some thugs and was beaten to death because he never told about it. [{ This is found in UFOs over Utah and UUFOND I think. The other way was he was beaten to death by thugs who wanted to know where jbs cave was at. The strange thing here is I have had the Sanpete County Sheriff look in to old records for jb and his son and the cause of the sons being murdered. The sheriff can find NO records of any kind.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#19  Postby Whyte Eagle » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:56 pm

The official ruling of the sons death was as a suicide. He was found in his car with a hose from the tail pipe to the interior of the car.

There are some interesting circumstances surrounding the investigation that has never been published publicly and so I won't go into those details here, but there is reason to believe that someone else may have been involved with the death, which if proven, wouid rule out suicide.

John always felt that the death of his son was as a direct result of his involvment with the cave which is probably one of the reasons why he stopped talking about it after his sons death.

There is more to the story ... maybe for a later time ...
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#20  Postby littlered » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:45 pm

Well the only story I had ever heard was the one about Johnny's son being beaten to death because he would not disclose the location of the original cave. I have heard that he (John) supposedly found several caves because of information he got from inside the original cave. Again, I probably know as little about this as anyone in the world. I have never heard about the involvement of supposed aliens from any family member. I did finally find some pictures last night while surfing on yahoo for Manti plates. These were the first pictures I have been able to look at in probably thirty years. I think maybe the box on the front of Dr. Heinerman's book is the one I saw many years ago, it just looks more yellowed or brown that I remember. I was thinking that it was very white in my memory. The picture of the plates are exactly like the one plate I was able to examine. I am getting old and my memory is not what it was at one time but I am just as interested in the truth of this discovery as I was when I first heard of it, and now maybe even more so. I know that a lot of people have put in an immense amount of time investigating Brewer's cave and I understand why not much information about it is not freely available but I am getting older and have a bad heart so I am sure I will never be able to devote all I would like to get to the bottom of this find. Right now I am writing a lot of notes and reading all I can find: I am still waiting on Dr. Heinerman's book. I was hoping to have it before the weekend but that did not happen. Happy hunting everyone.
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#21  Postby Lostaslost » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:04 pm

Littered, if you ordered your book from Amazon it will be there soon enough. I see you live aways off from here in the Utah area. Otheriwse you could go righ to Rocky Mountain Prospector and pick the book up there. This of course is located in Orem off of State Street right next to K-Mart to the south.

Dr Heinermans book is all you will need and from there you can go to doing a lot of research else where. I would personally also suggest you read Following the Ark of Covenant by Kerry Ross Boren. Here you will find a lot of other people saying it is nothing but a pack of lies. You can believe all of the know it all's and or you can start from that point and follow with your own research. I would personally again suggest by starting your research with the Knights Templars. There is one jillion books and start reading and go from there. You see a name mentioned once that is one thing but you see it over and over again then get that book. It is never ending but it will blow your mind sooner and or later with what you read and find. I will right now warn you that you may not like what you find because it gets really deep into religion. So deep, that sooner and or later you are going to say enough! Then ask yourself what do you believe.

I have now been reading for just about two winters now on nothing but the Templars and other books that fall into this catagory. I will tell you that there is not any doubt in my mind that the Knights where here in this area. There is books and DVD's on this account but it stops a long ways from Utah. For Brewer it may have very well happened just as he always said. I am a believer and I never meet the man one time but I have been to Manti and I have talked to one who knew him well. This one individual told me outright that he never knew Jonnie Brewer as a lier in any size, way and or form.

Now for the author and or Hanerman' book's I am just saying that I think he is only telling the truth. I do not believe that any indivivudal would take the time and effort to make up something as wild as this and put it into publication just for kicks and or as others seem to want to put it on this forum., To make a fortune. That is right there is many people who believe that they can sell a pack of lies and make a pure fortune doing it. What a shame for all of the non-reading public that can not read and make up their own minds about something.

Now for the Allien parts. Could very well be so. I have been told by others that believe this to be so. Some have said that in Borens book the Gold of the Carrie-Shinob that Boren had put in his book that he could not speak of some things found becuase it was of Allien Nature. I never took it as this just because. I always believed in my mind that he was not talking of something concerning the Utes. And again this is just me and my thinking.

Now Littered you are going to find while reading about the Templars that they where most definitly hiding something. It is drinving me nearly nuts. You read something and you say that was it! Was that it and or not? I keep thinking that soooner and or later I am going to hit on something that most defiitly suggest Alliens. I always read with a open mind. We most definitly know that the Templars used a whole lot of astronimey. I will just keep reading and learning a lot of world history.

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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#22  Postby littlered » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:31 pm

Lost, Thanks for the help because everyone that knows me knows I need help.Seriously though I have followed your comments on other forums and I respect your words and thoughts. I have always suspected that the LDS church was deeply involved with this discovery because of the persecution and misery that Johnny Brewer was put through after he tried to authenticate his find. I am not LDS but my ex wife was and from my conversations with her and her LDS friends I became aware that most believers are under the impression that a lot goes on that is denied, covered up or misled and maybe even misinterpreted to save face for the church. Everyone seems to share the same thoughts about covert operations undertaken by the church dating back to the Mountain Meadow incident and maybe even before that. It makes me wonder if I really want to keep trying to uncover the truth after reading your post. I have spent many hundreds of hours in conversation withfamily members about Brewer's cave and I would like to get some of them to open up to me again about what they know but I have about given up hope of that happening. I was disappointed again today that the postal service did not deliver my much anticipated Dr. Heinerman book. I was hoping to be in Utah next month so I could chase down some more leads but it looks like that is not going to happen so I will do what I can online. From what I have been told and learned on my on their is no doubt in my mind that what Johnny Brewer told is the truth. I have never ( in the 30 or so years I have known about this ) had any reason to doubt the man and I would certainly not now since he has passed. Once again I appreciate all you have shared with me. I will try to gather all this information that I can and see how much more confused it will make me. Thanks everyone, good hunting
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#23  Postby Lostaslost » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:01 pm

Littered good luck with your research and finds. I hope for you that the Brewer family opens up but then with their loss do you blam them. Then after so many BS's and the like then it just gets old and they do not care to say anything to anyone and who can blame them for this.

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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#24  Postby littlered » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:57 pm

Lost, You are absolutely right. But if I had answers to all my questions what would I do with all my time. Littlered
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Re: Carbon Dating Results

Post Number:#25  Postby littlered » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:14 pm

Somebody post something. This has gotten stale. Has everything everyone has heard already been posted and I missed it? I am still waiting for my Heinerman book. I dont know what is taking so long but I am getting so impatient that I have started reading all the other posts on this web site to try and keep busy. I am still waiting for more information about where to look for information about Brewer's cave. Where can I find the diagram Johnny Brewer made of the inside of the cave? I have been reading Some Dreams Die and Faded Footprints by George Thompson for the past ten days or so and have been learning much more about Utah's history that I had ever known. I have enjoyed both books very much but the search for Utah's buried treasure does not intrigue me much because it is so far away and I seldom get to visit. I would like to take a week or so off this summer and explore but I don't know how much my heart can stand any more. Lost, I only wish I had your hard earned knowledge about the goings on in ancient Utah. Good hunting everyone. littlered
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