Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Discussions of ancient petroglyphs and related items ...

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#101  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:20 pm

It's not too far fetched DigitChaos ... and a good idea as well ... I know comparisons have been done in the past, and I'm sure Terry Carter has looked into this as well ... some time ago I did a similar comparison, but didn't really make an effort to make a connection with the geography surrounding the panels ... so, maybe trying your suggestion would shed some new light on it all ... ;=) ...
Image
User avatar
Whyte Eagle
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8447
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Western US

Another Theory

Post Number:#102  Postby DigitalChaos » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:21 pm

This is a theory I came up with when trying to figure out how Egyptian writing ended up on rocks all over the western US.

First, a brief history of Nephi. Nephi lived in Jerusalem with his family circa 600 BC. Lehi, Nephis father, was ordered that he and his family go into exile. The people of Jerusalem were angry and going to kill Lehi for prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem. Once in exile, Nephi built and ship and he and his family crossed the seas to the Americas. They landed and settled in South America. It is important to note that Nephi was bilingual. He spoke and wrote both Hebrew and Egyptian. And in fact the name Nephi isnt a Hebrew name, but a Hebrew form of the Egyptian name Nfr.

Once in the Americas, circa 589BC, Nephi became leader of the Nephites. Their language was Egyptian. Fast forward to the year 385AD. At this time, Mormon is the leader of the Nephite armies. According to the Book of Mormon (which I refer to and use purely as a historical text), Mormon 9:32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech. So, almost 1000 years later, the language of the Nephites is still Egyptian, just a reformed version of it. And at this time, in 385AD Mormon led the Nephites against the Lamanites in a battle at the hill Cumorah. 250,000 Nephite soldiers were killed, as was Mormon.

Moroni, Mormons son, was the sole survivor of the Nephite nation, the last Nephite. He was instructed by his father to complete the Nephite record, which Mormon had abridged from previous records. After the battle at Cumorah, Moroni had to stay on the move, running from the lamanites who were chasing him to kill him. And at the same time finish writing down the story of the destruction of his people. Again, its important to note that Moroni wrote in reformed Egyptian.

So now we have to know the location of where the battle at Cumorah took place. Many people believe there are actually two Cumors, one where the battle took place, and one where Smith found the plates and translated them into the book of mormon. The coordinates for the hill cumorah in New York are
43.0058 North, 77.2244 West. And several scholars have proposed that Cerro Vigia in Tabasco, Mexico is the hill cumorah where the battle took place. Coordinates are 18.55 North, 95.1833 West. You can plug either of those coordinates into google maps to see their location.

If Cerro Vigia is indeed the location, then Moroni traveled north while on the run. I believe he might have made all those markings across the western United States in his language of reformed Egyptian. The same language he was finishing the Book of Mormon in. Why did he make the markings? We can only speculate until someday the markings are (hopefully) translated. Maybe it was a trail of where hed been and leaving messages for other Nephites that might have been on the run. Maybe he was using the rocks as scratch paper before he wrote anything permanent onto the tablets. And if it was Moroni who created these carvings, that would make them around 1600 years old. Which is possible.

When he was done writing on the tablets, he traveled east all the way to new york and put them in that hill where ultimately joseph smith found them around 1500 years later. So if these carvings are only in the west, when he finished writing on the tablets, he no longer needed to carve in the rocks since there is nothing found east. And if this is indeed true, I bet there are a bunch of these same carvings in Mexico.

Sorry if all that seemed a bit scatterbrained. I dont really know how plausible this is, but it is just another theory I came up with. Anyone have any thoughts on it?
User avatar
DigitalChaos
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#103  Postby Herb » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:21 pm

A very interesting theory. Looks like you really spent some time doing your research too. Having spent some serious time studying glyphs, signs and symbols this seems plausible to me as at least one of the symbols that is recurring in these glyphs is definitely Egyptian. You got my interest up again, I'll have to do some more searching. Thanks for sharing your research.
User avatar
Herb
 
Posts: 2043
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#104  Postby DigitalChaos » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:23 pm

The most recurring Egyptian symbol and one that stands out the most would be the Ankh, which is the symbol of life.

So if this is the true story of these glyphs, well, we have to learn more about reformed Egyptian.

Now, the problem with these is if they are in fact reformed Egyptian as mormon said, then the key to the language died with moroni, the last nephite. Or rather, it would have died with Joseph Smith who successfully translated an entire book written in reformed Egyptian. So what does reformed Egyptian look like?

img177.imageshack.us/img1...rgeds6.jpg

That link takes you to a picture of the Anthon transcript. In 1828, Martin Harris visited Joseph Smith and got a copied sample of the reformed Egyptian and a translation of it from Smith so he can take it to a scholar to have it verified. Harris showed the copied sample to Dr. Charles Anthon at Columbia University. Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. When he saw the yet to be translated characters, he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. Anthon said that they were true characters and so gave a certificate certifying that they were true characters and that the translation was correct. However, when he inquired about how Smith found the gold plates and Harris told him that an angel showed them to the plates, Anthon ripped up the certificate.

Later, Anthons description of the transcript was that it consisted of all kinds of crooked characters disposed in columns. He also said that it ended in a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Mexican Calender. By these two descriptions, the anthon document is not what was shown to Anthon. It does not fit the description. It is not written in long perpendicular columns like anthon said, there's no calendar at the bottom. And wait a minute, why would there be a mexican calendar on it? I don't know if they had much knowledge of the mayans back then, but the maya calendar is very similar to the mexican calendar that Anthon would have known, so he might have attributed it to being mexican. So if Moroni wrote the calendar, and he was born and lived in central america, then he would have known of the maya calendar, as he lived during the classic period of the maya civilization.

In 1887, David Whitmer claimed that he had in his posession the original paper containing characters transcribed from one of the golden plates, which Martin Harris took to Charles Anthon. This paper is what became widely known as Anthons Script (picture link above) and how it became known to the world. However, as stated earlier, I don't believe this is what Anthon saw, it doesn't match his description of the document. So I don't believe this is an example of reformed egyptian. I believe the document Anthon saw is either lost or destroyed.

Here's another interesting little story that in my mind proves that these writings on this note are not reformed egyptian. Carl Hugh Jones studied the Anthon script and he identified Anthon script characters on two mexican seals made of baked clay. They wer found at the archaeological site of Tlatilco near the western edge of the Valley of Mexico. Dr. David Kelley, a renowned linguist considered that the characters on the baked clay represented an uknown writing system. Archaeologist John Graham of the University of California later commented on this script saying the markings of this seal closely resemble various oriental scripts ranging from Burma and China to the rim of the Mediterranean. If the signs of this seal should be writing, and the seal should be accepted as authentic, we would almost surely be dealing with an instance of transpacific contact during the Preclassic (before 300AD. OH, wait a minute, China.. yin yang symbol.. i'm seeing a connection here (i'll write more about this later). And a probable date for these seals are no later than 400BC.

Jones also compared the Anthon script symbols to another seal found at the famous Olmec site of La Venta, Tabasco. The characters on the La Venta artifact are much simpler than those on the one from Tlatilco, hence the comparisons are less interesting. Nevertheless Jones determined that he could see parallels between all the La Venta signs and those on the Anthon transcript. Tabasco, that is where the battle of cumorah took place. And they found writings similar but not quite the ones on the Anthon script. They were simpler. The nephites language evolved over 1000 years, probably adopting a lot of the writings, symbols, and other things of all the cultures around them, such as the mayans, the olmec, etc. And I would think they would make their language simpler, not more complex, why make things more difficult. And maybe those two artifacts right there are proof of this. One, dating at 400BC, just a few years before Nephi came and settled in mesoamerica, and it's complex. La Venta was abandoned by the olmec in 400BC. And the writing found on the seal at La Venta is not olmec. Nor does the Anthon script parallel olmec writing. So, if what was found at the Olmec site is a much simpler writing that parallels the Anthon script, it may not be a far reach to say that it might be either reformed egyptian or part of the evolution of going from egyptian to reformed egyptian.

I feel like my mind is going to explode right now there is so much information running through it. This theory probably has more holes than swiss cheese. But hey, it's all about the chase, trying to find the truth.
Here's a site I got a lot of this last info from: maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/...ms&id=188. There's a lot of good info at the maxwellinstitute website.
User avatar
DigitalChaos
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#105  Postby Herb » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:25 pm

I think that you may have seen this but here it is again, the interpretation of the reformed Egyptian script by BYU.

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=36

The Ankh is the one I had in mind. Another that intrigues me is the one that looks like a cursive number 3, it also appears frequently in the symbols. One problem with this kind of research is that these symbols may not represent letters of any alphabet at all, but stand alone as a representation of many letters or even a sentence that represents their meaning. If this is the case then it could be near impossible to find the real meaning without a key.
User avatar
Herb
 
Posts: 2043
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#106  Postby Whyte Eagle » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:25 pm

Herb and Digital Chaos you both have excellent points on the matter DigitalChaos, the theory you have presented is one which has been given as a possibility before, it is also one of my theories concerning the Mystery Glyphs with a couple of variations. So in thinking of this theory only for the moment let me give you the exceptions as I see them.

First, I know there have been more than one group of people through time who have made it to the Americas and have landed in various places along the coast lines. Some of those Ive found evidence of would be the Minoans, Olmec, Olgam, Egyptians and of course the Nephites. For me trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific contact occurred anciently. The Nephites, however, are the only ones that we have a good record of. I think they probably landed some where alomg the east coast of North America or possibly the north edge of the Gulf of Mexico and that the events of the Book of Mormon probably occurred in the upper mid west region of North America.

Second, supposing the Mystery Glyphs are reformed Egyptian, or a variation of what they used originally upon arrival to the new land and that it was indeed Moroni who made them, then I think he probably made them after he deposited the original plates at Cumorah in the East and he made them while he was fleeing the Laminates and wandering in the wilderness.

Third, Supposing the Symbols are a variation of or are indeed Reformed Egyptian, then we would not have anything to date such as a rosetta stone by which we could use to decipher them, and the language would not be well known if at all amongst Scholars. This isnt far fetched as Ive come across other writings which appear to be authentic but we have no idea who left them or when all of which were found in North America and could be considered t ohave come from an unknown people or culture

The one thing we do know about the symbols is that no one has laid claim to having made them in modern times, and by that I mean anytime within the last 200 years. Nor have we been able to make a connection to any group or individual as being the author within the same time frame. I sincerely believe they are older than 200 years and we left by a people who no longer exist what they may say is anybodys guess, and the quest continues but if it were Moroni who made them it may be as simple as markers indicating he had passed that way

We know of 24 sites in the western US to date, so far I have not been able to match them to any other group of symbols that have been found but the closest Ive come has been a small grouping of symbols from the Mediterranean area which date to about 2000 BC. And even then they are not identical, but if there was a connection made it would probably mean some ancient travel took place between these two locations

Soooooo like has been said before, the quest continues ;=) Hopefully someday we may know the truth concerning them and their authors, who ever they may be
Image
User avatar
Whyte Eagle
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8447
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Western US

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#107  Postby DigitalChaos » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:28 pm

The Chinese may have been here 3000 years ago. Check out these following links:

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news141.htm

http://www.chinese.tcu.edu/www_chinese3_tcu_edu.htm


Here's another pretty good read:

http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue14/ar14amerwriters.html
User avatar
DigitalChaos
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#108  Postby Satorilost » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:29 pm

People tend to concentrate on the Egyptian lookin' glyphs,
but the variety is much wider than just a reformed egyptian
would account for. The Yin/Yang is much like the Ahnk in
meaning, and at least as popular as the Ahnk, but in Asia
There are many Cultures represented by these glyphs
The hands look very mayan, Swastica goes way back
what about the child like house with window, only missing
the chimney. There's the deer or elk with antlers. How 'bout
the 2 lines side by side.
I'm still lookin' but...I would think if this had anything to do with
Mormon Mythology, the LDS church would be on it. After all
FARMS is all over Middle America, looking for evidence.
Then again maybe they are ;=)
There proximity to populated areas is going to be part of the answer.

Robert
User avatar
Satorilost
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#109  Postby Satorilost » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:29 pm

well, all the other symbols could have been incorporated and adopted into the language written and spoken by moroni.

Or they could have been written by somebody who had contact with these people (egyptian, myan, chinese, etc.) and was just writing the symbols he had learned of the different cultures. Or maybe if you seperate the different languages on the rocks, they say the same thing.
User avatar
Satorilost
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#110  Postby Kanabite » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:30 pm

whyte eagle wrote : Kanabite also pointed out the possibility of a carved Owl in conjunction with the Shotput man seems like he had it on one of the KGC threads, but an Owl is visible when looking at the upper left portion of the carved out section again, is it a coincidence? maybe interesting none the less



there are two owls amigo ONE BIG ,ONE SMALL.. two snakes ,one big ,one small, and a mysterious square looking mark above him.{most likely ancient}.... there is also writing .some spanish looking , some cryptic , and some more modern, there is also a lot more ,but i need help... this thing is too much. there are three drill holes ,two of them eyes . and they all track out . one broken heart complete with death trap. and i am tired of this thing ... tell me there is a way to do this right ... do you know the answer?. you spoke of a manuscript in your possession . what does it say about this ?. tell me what i should do because i do not know .... i walked away from this once , but it will not let me go. maybe Rog is right maybe this is all crazy but i am not and i want this task over. there has been much support from others here and for that i say thank you, but if i have to stand alone i will , how do you fix the way things are ?. i was wrong about the carving ,he is old , he is part of something much larger ,something over my head . and i do not want anything i say to cause anymore harm....i called the ones i knew of, that have pieces to this puzzle , but they have not come forth . i know i sound crazy but i am not ,this thing is crazy.....why is it like this ?THIS IS NOT THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. you should be able to bring forth information without fear, without doubt, discover things and show them without someone sneaking in and taking your proof, or your life . tell me that i haven't just wasted so much time on these follies , when i could have been doing anything better, like stuff with my kids. i will break this curse and be free of its bonds... i am not selling anything , no books ,no movies , nothing ...... the music is free ,some of you know what i mean........ maybe this is not over but doing the same thing over and over and over and hoping for a different outcome is insane. i am not going anywhere but i needed to vent ////bob. PS I TRIED < I DON"T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO.....
User avatar
Kanabite
 
Posts: 1643
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#111  Postby RaiderNation21 » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:31 pm

i am digitalchaos, the one who started this thread (in case i didn't mention that somewhere else before).

kanabite, deep breath my friend, deep breath.

there's a lot of good things in that canyon, all of which i am sure you have found. the heart in my avatar is found in the same general area as shotput man, is this the broken heart you're talking about? i've been to shotput man and the surrounding areas more times than i can count. i've started at shotput man and hiked to the top of the red mountain, there's some good stuff along the way... but it's been a while. there's also a collapsed cave in the area.................... or at least that's what it seems to be hehe.
User avatar
RaiderNation21
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#112  Postby Kanabite » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:32 pm

no its not the same heart amigo. yours is cool . got to go now , late for work.////bob
User avatar
Kanabite
 
Posts: 1643
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#113  Postby Blke36bimmer » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:33 pm

Digital Chaos, just curious as to your theory, do your dates and places have any historical basis, or are they conjecture from multiple sources, if so, which sources. Im very interested in aztec/moroni correlation and just looking for some more info.
Thanks!
User avatar
Blke36bimmer
 
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 6:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#114  Postby RaiderNation21 » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:34 pm

(i'm digitalchaos)

what dates you looking for? i cross reference all my dates usually...... i haven't touched this topic in a while... so i'd have to find all my sources again. been through 3 computers since i posted that theory and lost all my data.
User avatar
RaiderNation21
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:00 pm

Re: Found Some Glyphs in So. Utah

Post Number:#115  Postby Kanabite » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:35 pm

Raider Nation wrote :i've started at shotput man and hiked to the top of the red mountain, there's some good stuff along the way... but it's been a while. there's also a collapsed cave in the area.................... or at least that's what it seems to be hehe.


i am not sure if the collapsed cave you are talking about is the one where the big overhang has fallen down covering something or not . it kind of looks like tailing's that the rock is covering but it might just be natural. there are a couple things in that canyon where the SPM is located that make you wonder . it has been a long time since I walked through it . seems like that Davala guy was headed up that little road with a cat to try to remove a cap stone and the Blm shut him down ... that rock in the canyon seems like it had a bunch of small natural arches on it, but it has been a long time ago when i walked up it. i remember the place where there is a little V shaped gap in the ledge on the east side of the canyon is close to a formation that resembled a eagle head with a eye but i don't think i have any pictures of it.... there are a couple of places there that look like old diggings but they may have just been caves. i hope that helps
User avatar
Kanabite
 
Posts: 1643
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:00 pm

Previous

Return to Petroglyphs

  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest